You're white you haven't experienced racism 4

[PatricksRum]

Continued.

Last derail.
Just in case anyone begins reading and wants to bring her up again.

Anyway sorry. Onwards and upwards.

Racism begins at home.
Oppression begins at home.
A lot of things, blacks killing blacks is a symptom of the oppression.
BLM benefits not only black people but the country on the whole.
Less knife crime. Less gun crime. Less gang wars. Which in turn will: free up the NHS, free up police resources and SAVE LIVES.

That's very fair.

I suppose part of it is that even if you had other black friends who did stand up against that racism, that wouldn't be enough. Because then the racists would think "oh the black people don't like that." But if white people join forces with you to call it out, then they might start to think "oh people don't like that."

Which is shit that it's the case, but is just sort of me rolling over in my mind what "use your privilege" means.

@qweryuiop Being anti-racist, personally I think that it means not being racist doesn't change things so I need to do more, start by signing petitions, stand up if i whiteness someone being racist towards another person. I'd like to know what other people's opinions are on this too.
How do we give to confidence OP?

@qweryuiop

Right, there's so much I could say re. traveller communities and things that have been said here.

But, in the interests of moving the thread on. I've heard many times, especially in recent days:
"It's not enough to not be racist, you must be anti-racist."

Is anyone interested in discussing this statement?

I think that’s a great statement. Whether it’s tackling inequalities in your own outlook or other people’s it’s absolutely essential.

If people don’t speak up, racists feel emboldened to carry on. If people challenge them and make them explain themselves they (mostly) get a lot quieter. (Obviously for extremists that alone is not going to work, but one black American man managed to convert 200 klan away from the klan

Daryl Davis
www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes?t=1591563422676

@AvranaKernsBestSpider That gave me goosebumps. Thankyou for sharing that.

How do we give to confidence OP?

A poster actually pm'd me on MN.
Essentially her dc were of mixed white and black heritage and they got upset every time her black partner spoke to them about racism.
Being of mixed heritage myself this resonated with me.
I can remember so many times as a child being racially abused, especially when visiting my family in the north, they are light skinned and mostly white. A boy kept saying I had mud on my face. Not only did I not challenge it, it passed me by until my white cousin called him out on it. There was tons of us but he was the only one.
I also remember watching the How Racist Are You programme and feeling so uncomfortable because it reiterated to me that speaking about racism will make white people hate me even more.
I told the poster of how attending events specifically for black people made me feel comfortable enough to speak about racism.
It's the little things that personally give me confidence. This thread and the posts from NotNowPlzz and Coffee and Eyesight and many others. Essentially it isn't if someone agrees it disagrees with what I'm saying but they're listening and supporting me in tackling the racism on the thread. I don't feel alone.

Things I am going to do

-talk to my black friends and colleagues about racism. Ask them if they are doing OK this week and if I can help.

-research and donate to a mental health charity supporting black people

• be more active in challenging stuff at work eg I think it's really shit that the Trust workforce is about 60% BAME but the entire board is white. I am going to ask them about actually positively trying to recruit black people to senior positions. There's a forum you can ask the board qs. I can use that

• ask qs in the chief execs chat forum about why they put the Covid ward on the site with the highest proportion of BAME staff. I know they'll say it was just logistics. I expect it was. But also it was because there were no black people on the board giving challenge.

-I'm going to ask for a spot in the education timetable to talk about Seni's law (Olaseni Lewis) and racism in mental health services. I will ask black colleagues if they want to co-present with me so they can be heard as none are in a position to get a slot/ feel able to speak unless I help.

• I have ordered some books to read including White Fragility

It works both ways you know Patricksrum. I have felt more emboldened to speak because you said it was Ok and it was helpful. In the past I have felt that I have to stay away because it is not my fight

I have been worried at times of being accused of being a white saviour/ social justice warrior (I am not really sure what's bad about fighting for social justice actually but it seems it's an insult). I'm not sure what those are/ how I'd know if I was doing that bs using my privilege to help.

I was also a bit worried by something someone said on thread 3 about being the token black friend. I was sorry that got swamped. I'd like to be sure I am not doing that so wanted to hear more. I think my black friend I am very close to it's because of her qualities as a person and I hope she knows that.

I'd welcome it if you want to say more about how to be a good ally. What are the pitfalls/ what would be unwelcome

I agree with what @WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee has written.

I've never considered myself to be racist, I have never used names, I have had black friends throughout my life I buy black music, I go to black concerts, I genuinely though that was good enough but it isn't.

After reading your first few threads @PatricksRum I must admit I found your tone very aggressive and confrontational and I didn't agree with you but as I've read all the replies, I do see it from a different perspective. I still can't claim to fully understand because the dictionary definition of racism states anyone can be a victim of racism, however my understanding is that these one off incidents of "racism" white people encounter, is just that a one off, it's not an everyday occurrence. It's not something I have to deal with on a regular, if not daily basis like you and the majority of the BAME community.

My eldest daughter (17) has met many of my black friends, she isn't racist, but she also understands we haven't done enough to tackle racism, so she has emailed her school to set up a club at school so she can talk and educate her peers on racism and what they can do to help. She has spent the entire week signing petitions, donating her money to black causes and researching the history of black oppression by whites she has ordered a number of books to continue her education on the matter.

So op we are here, we are listening and we are doing what we can to educate those around us. We stand with you and support you.

@PatricksRum
I'm sorry to hear of your experiences of racism and how you've felt uncomfortable in the past.

I am happy that you feel supported by people on this thread. From that I've learnt that you want to be heard and understood , a good place to start is for white people and myself to listen and remember it's not about our feelings but it's about how you and other people who experience racism feel.

You don't want sympathy you want people to understand how hard it's been for you and others and still is to this day, you want to not feel alone. Is that some of what you feel OP?

Hello PatricksRum. I would be very interested to hear your perspective on whether/how class dictates racism. Do you think that working class black people are subject to racism more than middle class black people are?

Hello PatricksRum. I would be very interested to hear your perspective on whether/how class dictates racism. Do you think that working class black people are subject to racism more than middle class black people are?
Hey welcome to the thread.
In a short answer, no.
Racists don't care for your class, if you're black you're black.
Look at Meghan Markle for example.
What I will say is that a richer person, black or white, is better positioned.

@iwilltaketwoplease
You've got it.
Despite all the hatred and anger towards me it's humbling to see that some posters really didn't like me in the beginning but have gone away and thought and thought until they did.
Interestingly, on reddit a poster said She's living the dream in a small respect
I thought about this and she's right. I feel like I'm experiencing a little of what it's like to be privileged. I said a few times I expected to wake up to a deletion and permanent ban but MNHQ didn't. I was so shocked. I feel so privileged to be able to right a post without apologising to white people. I feel something I've never felt before.

After reading your first few threads @PatricksRum I must admit I found your tone very aggressive and confrontational and I didn't agree with you but as I've read all the replies, I do see it from a different perspective. I still can't claim to fully understand because the dictionary definition of racism states anyone can be a victim of racism, however my understanding is that these one off incidents of "racism" white people encounter, is just that a one off, it's not an everyday occurrence. It's not something I have to deal with on a regular, if not daily basis like you and the majority of the BAME community.
I think a lot of people felt/ feel like you but as the threads have gone on they're starting to think her anger is justified.
The reason why I've been so blunt from the beginning is because I'm fighting every day on sovisl media, in real life, and I don't want to apologise for my anger anymore. MN was the place I turned to.
I said previously, the fact you can even recall these incidents is a privilege, I've experienced so much racial abuse, but I can't remember 99% of them.
It's also important to remember that these incidents of racial prejudice are a result of oppression and fear.
*
My eldest daughter (17) has met many of my black friends, she isn't racist, but she also understands we haven't done enough to tackle racism, so she has emailed her school to set up a club at school so she can talk and educate her peers on racism and what they can do to help. She has spent the entire week signing petitions, donating her money to black causes and researching the history of black oppression by whites she has ordered a number of books to continue her education on the matter.*
This is great. Your dd is doing a great job. Setting up a club to educate is amazing. She's doing you proud.
*
So op we are here, we are listening and we are doing what we can to educate those around us. We stand with you and support you.*
Thank you

[quote PatricksRum]@iwilltaketwoplease
You've got it.
Despite all the hatred and anger towards me it's humbling to see that some posters really didn't like me in the beginning but have gone away and thought and thought until they did.
Interestingly, on reddit a poster said She's living the dream in a small respect
I thought about this and she's right. I feel like I'm experiencing a little of what it's like to be privileged. I said a few times I expected to wake up to a deletion and permanent ban but MNHQ didn't. I was so shocked. I feel so privileged to be able to right a post without apologising to white people. I feel something I've never felt before. [/quote]
I think that's where you're right about "this is our time." Black voices are everywhere right now and many white people are listening.

Your thread title is a really thought provoking statement. Initially I read and I thought back to a couple of incidents in my life and decided you were wrong because I have experienced it, but the more I read the more I understood and was able to see through my own privilege that whilst what I have experienced could be defined as racism by the dictionary definition, it really really isn't.

And you last post has just made me feel so sad for you, it's spurred me on to fight harder for equality and end racism. So to summarise you inspire me.

I am glad Mumsnet let these threads stand. I voted one of them for classics and I stand by that
Mumsnet has been called out for having a problem with subtle racism for years and I never really saw it/ I chose to walk on by but boy did these threads bring it to my attention.
I would be interested to know how many times OP got reported vs other posters. I bet there was some in both directions but there were not a lot of deletions.

Sorry cross posted

It works both ways you know Patricksrum. I have felt more emboldened to speak because you said it was Ok and it was helpful. In the past I have felt that I have to stay away because it is not my fight
I appreciate that and I've heard a few posts where white people have said they're scared of saying the wrong thing.
Whilst it is our fight, it's you who are going to win it for us if that makes sense?*

I have been worried at times of being accused of being a white saviour/ social justice warrior (I am not really sure what's bad about fighting for social justice actually but it seems it's an insult). I'm not sure what those are/ how I'd know if I was doing that bs using my privilege to help.*
I've not heard of these terms personally but I'd think they would be made by
A) racists
B) black people who are oppressed and fear your true motives.
Take zebra for example, I tried to help her genuinely but then I start to question her motives. If this was Irl I would be so so scared of the ramifications.
*
I was also a bit worried by something someone said on thread 3 about being the token black friend. I was sorry that got swamped. I'd like to be sure I am not doing that so wanted to hear more. I think my black friend I am very close to it's because of her qualities as a person and I hope she knows that.

I'd welcome it if you want to say more about how to be a good ally. What are the pitfalls/ what would be unwelcome*
I don't think there are any pitfalls.
I think it was you who said something about how I feel and then said (sorry if I'm speaking out of turn). I can't speak for all black people, of course but I have no problem any person, white or black reiterating my points. I think this would only be a problem if you stood at the front of a March and made it about you. That isn't what you did. You listened to me. You heard me. You saw me repeat myself. You then eased the pressure by reiterating these points. And I can see the difference in how people responding to you vs me and I guarantee it isn't just to do with my posting style.

I am glad Mumsnet let these threads stand. I voted one of them for classics and I stand by that
Mumsnet has been called out for having a problem with subtle racism for years and I never really saw it/ I chose to walk on by but boy did these threads bring it to my attention.
I would be interested to know how many times OP got reported vs other posters. I bet there was some in both directions but there were not a lot of deletions.
I don't know if you were at the start of my first thread but so many of the posts:
^I'm reporting you
You're racist. I'm reporting this thread.
This is racist. MN delete and ban her.^
I'd be very interested to know how many reports they received. I'm not sure they'll tell me but I'm going to ask

Your thread title is a really thought provoking statement. Initially I read and I thought back to a couple of incidents in my life and decided you were wrong because I have experienced it, but the more I read the more I understood and was able to see through my own privilege that whilst what I have experienced could be defined as racism by the dictionary definition, it really really isn't.
It is and that's what I wanted to do.
I linked another thread someone posted. One reply they had. One reply.*

And you last post has just made me feel so sad for you, it's spurred me on to fight harder for equality and end racism. So to summarise you inspire me.*
Thank you for fighting.
Thank you for your kind words.

I think that's where you're right about "this is our time." Black voices are everywhere right now and many white people are listening.
Right and any time we think what about we should remember that a lot of those things are faced by us too. For example what about disabled people? I'm disabled. Imagine being disabled and being black.

I really fucking hate the term BAME
And here's why: thecyclingordinand.wordpress.com/2019/09/29/whos-the-minority-now/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

I began to see that too and it made me feel uncomfortable
'Oh if only she had expressed herself more like you'
Or do you mean you can only accept the point if it's coming from a white person?

Then towards the end of thread 3 I think I had said enough to start being termed 'OP and her allies' and people started to be a bit less nice and to misquote and twist things. That wasn't very nice to have that directed at me and it's something that doesn't usually happen to me. Interesting experience.

But tomorrow I can go back to not having to address it if I want to or at least I can have a day off. I have had a taste of what you get every day and I understood why you would be tired and why you would be angry.