You're white you haven't experienced racism 4

[PatricksRum]

Continued.

Siameasy seconded
That's very clearly expressed

It's like when people say that men get raped too
Yes they do
Each individual instance is a tragedy But numerically its a tiny problem compared to rape of women
And it's always men doing it
Posting about it on a thread about sexual violence against women is offensive because it distracts from the issue at hand

@PatricksRum and others (and I would really like to hear from people who are new to the thread, or haven't been trying to dominate previous threads, be given a chance to answer as I'm interested in the wider picture)

Do you feel there should be a new word or even a qualifier to racism to refer specifically to racism against black people?

I think I understand (coming from my POV of a white person so I'm sure I don't fully understand!) what you're saying (if you are given the chance) and it's a bit like (for example) Muslims can experience religious prejudice but they don't suffer anti Semitism. Which is specific to Jews.

I think you may be saying something similar to - people who aren't Jewish may suffer prejudice and discrimination but they don't suffer anti semitism and this is my thread talking about anti semitism and Jews specifically. No I don't want to talk about discrimination against Muslims (for example) as I know they experience prejudice and discrimination. But they don't suffer anti semitism. (But you don't have the word anti semitism, you only have the word discrimination ie racism.

Although it's not as simple as that I suppose as all religions suffer from prejudice - I have no doubt about that. So there is no "oppressing" religion, we are all as bad as each other in some ways. But Jews have a word for our "oppression"

From my own experience I simply don't know as much about or have that "heritage" inbuilt about other religions so I know mostly about the persecution of Jews and if people who aren't specifically Jewish wouldn't let me talk about it and keep saying what about it would make me feel very much that they are minimising it, or denying it because shit happens to other religions too let's talk about them.

So perhaps it's that you don't have the "equivalent" specific word especially for your own experiences of prejudice and discrimination as a black person so people don't understand how it is specific to you and they can't have experienced it.

Does that make any sense?

PS I'm not actually a practising Jew, I'm an atheist these days for full disclosure!

I hope I haven't offended anyone with my wording or terminology as these are almost abstract concepts for me to engage with. It's definitely making me think and I think people who aren't black but insisting on dominating the conversation really should shut the fuck up now and let black people, not educate, but perhaps give me and people like me some insights to help us support them.

Patricks - i would very much welcome your input on the thread I started if you are so inclined.

I totally agree with your last post @WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee and that also fucking infuriates me as it feels so dismissive and self important, especially when men are doing it. Always fucking men. I want to scream shut the fuck up and listen- just let us have this for fucking once it's not about you If @PatricksRum feels like this here she is doing a far far far better job than I could in her shoes.

I could not have the patience and grace not to just say fuck off, quite frankly.

That's how I feel too
I feel that angry about it as a result of my experiences
That's my way into feeling empathy for OPs anger

I’m not forcing anyone to do anything.
You're trying to and won't stop till you do. I noticed this at the end of thread 2. Thread 4 and you're doing the same.

I wonder
@Hearhoovesthinkzebras what do you actually make of George's death? Another black man murdered by a white cop.

I haven't and still don't understand why Dreep's views and input are consistently dismissed and labelled hostile and trouble making. Can there really be no room for an alternate view on racism and BLM from another BAME person on these thread? @Dreep has remained calm and polite, never aggressive or rude (unlike other posters) and yet is dismissed and ridiculed over and over. OP appears to be performing the on line equivalent of sticking her fingers in her ears and changing "la la la la la!" over and over whenever Dreep posts. I genuinely am baffled by it.

@Dreep I'd like to apologise for the comment I made on the previous thread, I mentioned that a black person is someone with dark skin often from African decent. I then asked about an example of some Jamaicans having dark skin and some lighter skin and wether the lighter skinned people are black too.

I wasn't saying black people are only dark skinned I was more questioning what the OP thought as it was unclear. Since, I've learned that people perceive others race how they want to.

My partner is mixed race and he doesn't see himself black nor white however depending on what social circle he is in they perceive him black or white if that makes sense?

My two younger children are "tanned" I'm white and like I said above he's mixed race so I suppose I'm thinking now will they experience racism because they are darker than me (white).

I've got a lot of learning to do, again I'm sorry if that comment hurt your feelings.

Forcing you (Or anyone else) to do what Op? Have a proper discussion? Healthy debate? Quantify statements?

Is that not the point of responding to a thread?

Tell me what you mean please. Or are you going to ignore that too?

If things are too uncomfortable to say I understand. But I don’t like spurious accusations with no explanation. As I said before, it isn’t in the spirit and is unfair.

If you don’t want to say I’m ok with that. But I will challenge each one as you are making a judgement against me and I’m entitled to respond.

I’m on your side. Have you forgotten that? We just have different approaches. And different opinions as to what is allowed to matter. On this thread or anywhere else.

I don’t think the title or some posts are helping. I know you’ve been told that already.

But you are getting the responses you are because of the title and because of some posts. That is on you.

That isn’t down to me. Or anyone who wants to impart their experience or give a differing opinion.

If you had titled a thread saying ‘only black lives matter’ you would never have seen me.

Despite the enormous light brown elephant in the room.

*@PatricksRum and others (and I would really like to hear from people who are new to the thread, or haven't been trying to dominate previous threads, be given a chance to answer as I'm interested in the wider picture)

Do you feel there should be a new word or even a qualifier to racism to refer specifically to racism against black people?*
IMO I think creating a new word simply gives white people more power.
You aren't happy that racism involves power so we have to create a new word
Another thing is I can imagine the new word created would be plastered on every newspaper and the racism would increase. The racists would comment whataboutery on am and people would begin to agree. They have a whole new word just for them.
I don't think it's easy by any stretch, as is evident from these threads to explain that white people just can't be subject to racism but I think it's important to stick to the point.
I think a qualifier is a great idea.
Notice on here it is defined differently than than the definition pp keep posting.*

I think I understand (coming from my POV of a white person so I'm sure I don't fully understand!) what you're saying (if you are given the chance) and it's a bit like (for example) Muslims can experience religious prejudice but they don't suffer anti Semitism. Which is specific to Jews.*
Right. That's correct. Jews can be any skin colour as can Muslims.
This one thing is specific to black people exclusively (not racism) but the movemt.*

I think you may be saying something similar to - people who aren't Jewish may suffer prejudice and discrimination but they don't suffer anti semitism and this is my thread talking about anti semitism and Jews specifically. No I don't want to talk about discrimination against Muslims (for example) as I know they experience prejudice and discrimination. But they don't suffer anti semitism. (But you don't have the word anti semitism, you only have the word discrimination ie racism.*
That's 100% correct. Unfortunately by me refusing to discuss (not acknowledge) the prejudice pp's keep coming back and picking me apart.*

Although it's not as simple as that I suppose as all religions suffer from prejudice - I have no doubt about that. So there is no "oppressing" religion, we are all as bad as each other in some ways. But Jews have a word for our "oppression"*
That's a good point actually about them having their own word. Just searching it up it seems that word was first used in 1879. I fear it wouldn't be as easy to make up a new word for racism in 2020.*

From my own experience I simply don't know as much about or have that "heritage" inbuilt about other religions so I know mostly about the persecution of Jews and if people who aren't specifically Jewish wouldn't let me talk about it and keep saying what about it would make me feel very much that they are minimising it, or denying it because shit happens to other religions too let's talk about them.

So perhaps it's that you don't have the "equivalent" specific word especially for your own experiences of prejudice and discrimination as a black person so people don't understand how it is specific to you and they can't have experienced it.

Does that make any sense? *
Yes it makes a lot of sense.
I think a big thing with the thread is white privilege. People don't want to accept privilege.
It's like when I say I'm a single mum. I receive response after response ^well technically I am because my husband works away.
I wish I was a single mum, my boyfriend is a dickhead.^
*
PS I'm not actually a practising Jew, I'm an atheist these days for full disclosure!

I hope I haven't offended anyone with my wording or terminology as these are almost abstract concepts for me to engage with. It's definitely making me think and I think people who aren't black but insisting on dominating the conversation really should shut the fuck up now and let black people, not educate, but perhaps give me and people like me some insights to help us support them.*
I think no one can answer who is black apart from to say whoever racists deem to be.

@YgritteSnow possibly the same reason people can't understand why you keep coming back and derailing the thread.

possibly the same reason people can't understand why you keep coming back and derailing the thread.

What is the reason then?

I read an interview with Antonio Banderas once and he said when he first went to the US he ticked white on a form because he has always thought of himself as a white European person
The US official told him he'd got it wrong and he should tick Hispanic which was something he'd never heard of.
He was being put in an inferior box based on his appearance (and maybe his accent)
Racism is a subjective thing
If people want to define you as other and discriminate against you on the basis of skin colour they will find a way.

Ygritte since you are here I find it unbelievably goady that you brought up Rachel Dolzeal. She deliberately pretended to look a different way to get grant money. She did not have a sincere belief that she was black

If black people aren't allowed to self define the only other option is stupid arbitrary categories assigned by other people. Or have you got some better definition. I assume you don't and that you just popped up to make a goady point as usual.

Black doesn't need to be defined people know it when they see it and all too often they then activate their preconceived racist stereotypes

@MyEyesightIsBadLetsGoForADrive

Hooves (and others inc Dreep) your refusal to stop haranguing and aggressively questioning OP is actually really uncomfortable to read. You seem absolutely hellbent on denying and minimising racism towards black people and you are so so insistent with your what abouts and buts and howevers and my statistics say this and but what about. Why do you keep doing this? Why are you trying to make OP's threads all about you and your opinions? God knows we all know your opinions by now! Give other people a chance. This is OP's third thread that you have pretty much filled up yourself - why can't you let other people speak and let OP interact with others instead of trying to respond to your insistent haranguing?

I have a genuine question for you. November is National Epilepsy Awareness month - where people try and raise awareness and educate others on epilepsy. If I make a post specifically about this would you go on and on and on with "what about people with other disabilities? Why can't this month be for all disabled people. They suffer disablism and need to make awareness too. All disabled people matter. Why are you ignoring them, we are all in it together"? Would you fill up three threads trying to argue this? If you wouldn't say this, why are you doing it to OP? If you would say this how you reply when I say

"I'm not denying other people but I started this thread specifically to talk about epilepsy - please feel free to start your own posts about arthritis (for example) or whatever disability you want to talk about and raise awareness. I am here to talk about epilepsy at this time"

Because OP has said this to you yet you just won't leave her alone.

I also don't think people without disabilities can suffer disablism. I think they can experience prejudice about lots of different aspects for example social class etc and I'm not denying that. Similarly OP has clearly said she knows other races can suffer prejudice and she acknowledges that. She has acknowledged that clearly! But she is talking about racism towards black people and saying you don't experience this if you are white. You haven't experienced this racism, you may have experienced prejudice (OP agrees!) and that is equally shit and they should be supported if they make a thread about it.

Why on earth do you feel the need to try and take over this thread and force OP to accept your views which she doesn't agree with? If you don't agree with her, fine, you've made your point don't you think?

Why on earth can't you just let OP say "you may have experienced prejudice but I don't believe you have suffered racism". Could you extend her the courtesy of letting her speak instead of shouting over her. Why don't you start your own thread so you don't fill up a fourth one which OP has posted not you.

She wants a discussion; not an argument with the same half a dozen people and one person in particular. Just stop, please. Let her discuss what she wants and let other people have a chance to agree or disagree instead of just hearing your voice. You've dominated these threads, not OP. It's fucking bad form even without it making you look like you have an agenda.

Please stop.

I am not, nor have ever denied that black people are subjected to racism. They are. It's disgusting and it must be stopped.

This isn't what the op has posted about though. She clearly has said white people cannot suffer from racism.

You're trying to argue the same by saying that white people can suffer prejudice but not racism - this simply isn't true. Travellers are recognised and protected under the Equality Act from racism.

If they can't experience racism how are they protected from it?

Some people need to educate themselves about such matters before proclaiming untruths and then getting upset because someone dates to point out that they are wrong.

Op is wrong that white people cannot suffer racism - white people are not one group of people. Some distinct groups clearly do suffer racism. Acknowledging that fact does not detract from the ops case and I'm frankly bewildered as to why she's so determined to continue with a flawed argument.

No worries @iwilltaketwoplease

I hope your children only ever know love and acceptance. I hope for things all the time. I like to think it works more often than not.

Ygritte since you are here I find it unbelievably goady that you brought up Rachel Dolzeal. She deliberately pretended to look a different way to get grant money. She did not have a sincere belief that she was black

Oh I wondered if I would get an answer to that. Why is that goady? The definition you gave perfectly matched her. I guess goady actually means "saying things I don't like" on this thread. Also how do you know that was her reason? As far as I am aware she still identifies as black despite having been outed, shamed and forced to pay all monies and grants back and happy to be corrected but wasn't she identifying as black for many years before grant money and positions related to race became a possibility?

@Dreep
On thread two and three you repeatedly tried to force me to answer your questions.

You repeatedly keep coming and refuse to understand that we have different approaches to dealing with racism.

I was asked what a black person was. I repeatedly said I can't define it, it isn't to be defined by me. Once or twice I said someone with dark brown skin. Instead of picking up what I said repeatedly, you picked up the point I barely made.
You said a black person cannot be defined by someone else nor yourself but interestingly haven't challenged the fact lemon repeatedly asked it and demanded there is an answer.

You're not on my side in the slightest.
I stated we had different approaches. You ignored this and have come back time and time again in attempt to force me in to fighting it in the way you do.

If you had titled a thread saying ‘only black lives matter’ you would never have seen me.
Why not? You've repeatedly made the point that all lives matter.
If I said only black lives matter, you along with even more posters would arrive to tell me other lives matter and I shouldn't make it about me. My approach is wrong. It's a sweeping statement. I'm creating a divide.

@WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee

Querioup you did not say that but zebrahooves did

She has an utter insistence on picking over the stats trying to get them to say things they don't and to deny and minimise racism against black people.

That plus her charming Holocaust denial accusations which were deleted.

I am afraid I have formed my opinion about her motivation now and there is no longer any benefit of the doubt for her

As she said the posts are there if people want to read them

What are you accusing me of saying? Because you know you're lying. We can all just go back and check so tell me, what is it that I've said?

You repeatedly keep coming and refuse to understand that we have different approaches to dealing with racism.

I think that's you actually given that you actually tried to drive her from the thread and refuse her a voice because you don't like her stance.

@WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee

He was being put in an inferior box based on his appearance (and maybe his accent)

Inferior?!

That's really awful and I'm surprised it came from you of all people.

• possibly the same reason people can't understand why you keep coming back and derailing the thread.

What is the reason then?*

Only you know why you keep coming back and derailing the thread.

Only you know why you keep coming back and derailing the thread.

Well I'm not, unless of course "derailing the thread" also means "saying things I don't like", which I suspect it does to you and a few others on here.

She's the one person who's ever done that. Her story got a lot of air time because it's so bizarre. There aren't exactly a tonne of people going around pretending to be black. It's not some kind of common occurrence.

It doesn't fit my definition. She had to lie and deliberately change her appearance to be accepted as black. Others would not have seen her as black if she didn't do that

There are interviews with her explaining why. It was because she wanted aspects of black culture that she desired, wanted a role as a victim and later on wanted to get grant money etc.

If you don't think self definition is Ok because Rachael Dolzeal then how do you suggest black is defined? If you are intending to debate that point then I'll accept you're not goady otherwise what is the point of your contribution?

Muslims can experience religious prejudice but they don't suffer anti Semitism. Which is specific to Jews

Muslims would suffer islamophobia and Jews anti semitism. They are both forms of religious prejudice or persecution.

Why do we need a different word to describe the racism aimed at black people?

Are you going to invent a word for racism suffered by Asian people, or Middle Eastern people?