"Why have kids if you can't afford them?"

[DianneWhatcock]

Aibu to never forgive this once being said to me ?

My "best friend" since I was a teenager said it to me five years ago and I have never been able to fully move on from it. Because it's given me the unshakeable impression she looks down on me

At the time I was working pt with 3 under 8 inc a baby. Dh working full time in a fairly decent job (more than min wage) plus he had a second job (1/2 evenings a week plus was studying). We were renting and saving to buy. We used to get a small amount of tax credits but we relied on that to make ends meet. we ended up having our tax credits more or less stopped due to an overpayment that would last about a year. I was worried sick at the time as this genuinely really fucked us financially. I told her about it and how worried I was and her response was basically "well why have kids if you can't afford them?" (I should also add she hasn't got kids and lives rent free with her parents - they have a big house)

Nowadays we haven't claimed a penny for years. We own our house (mortgaged) , dh is a high earner I'm working more and we don't even qualify for the very basic child benefit.

However H is furloughed and I guess it's back on my mind. Cos if he ends up redundant we may face having to claim some form of benefits again even temporarily. But the thought terrifies me - I thought I was past that part of my life where I struggled and counted every penny. And I can't stand the thought of being a person that gets judged again (even though I would NEVER judge others that way I am not that kind of person)

I will never ever forget this comment and how shit it made me feel. she never really apologised and I don't know whether to just end the friendship Cos it has just tainted it for ever i think

I know this is a really rambly post so well done anyone who got this far

I think if that was the case, that would rule out a lot people.
I know you say you can’t not think about what she said, but I would try to. I wouldn’t finish the friendship either as that was a while ago and if you were going to should have at the time.

@Mintjulia that's awful

@Waxonwaxoff0 That's how I feel ..I feel bad for them and hope they can improve their lot

I think it often....... Obviously not if circumstances out with a persons control put them temporarily in a needy position financially - but I see people already on benefits producing child number 3 or 4 or 5. I think that’s selfish, the world is overpopulated and I’d rather my taxes be put to better use.

[quote DianneWhatcock]@WorraLiberty

They might not know the exact figure but people who know us know what job dh does and that his area of expertise is well paid? and have seen our house (we went from a tiny ex council terrace to ..well ..something much better) and our better lifestyle. And the holidays we've been on and stuff. it's pretty obvious we aren't skint like before [/quote]
Yeah but they're not going to know if you have to go back on benefits are they?

I completely agree with her. People should only have the number of children they can afford to support, and should not expect the taxpayer to pick up the bill for their irresponsible reproductive choices, any more than I expect the taxpayer to pay for our horses. The two child benefit cap is absolutely the right policy.

However, while I might have firm views on this subject I would never voice them so bluntly to a friend who was struggling because their financial circumstances had changed due to factors beyond their control. That would be unkind and rude.

It’s said all the time on here so she’s not alone in thinking that.

What is "financially secure" anyway?

Waxonwaxoff0 At the very least you’re not financially secure if you’re relying on tax credits.

I’m not a benefits basher, OP, I’ve been on them myself and think they’re great for people who need them.

But if you were using tax credits to get by when you had two children, why would you think it was okay to have a third you couldn’t support yourself?

I think that’s key here. You didn’t have triplets, you didn’t fall on benefits after having three kids, you chose to have a third despite knowing you couldn’t support them, and I think that’s the difference and why your friend made that comment. And she’s right, you just don’t want to hear it.

I would let it go if you're still upset 5 years on. It's not unreasonable to feel offended by it, but you evidently can't get over it so why bother. I also do think this sometimes when people are complaining about worrying about having enough money for rent and food, and then actively TTC. And there's nothing wrong with having to claim benefits.

OP, be proud of what you achieved and that this financial bump isn't any fault of your own. SO many other families would be in the same boat now.

Same, I often think it but would never say it to a friend. Completely agree with you OP as well about anger that should be directed at a society where a family can’t live off two adults working full time. Also I know friends who’ve chosen to have a baby while not v well off as it’s their last chance before becoming too old, and they love the baby so much you kind of think ‘well that’s a lucky baby so it doesn’t really matter they can’t afford holidays etc’. I think it’s a different matter if for example you can’t afford to eat or pay rent and choose to have three, but we live in a free society so I can’t get very worked up about it as it’s a personal choice. As for your friend, I would maybe have some space from her or tell her you’re hurt and see what she says. I personally cut out anyone that hurts my feelings and then doesn’t try to even engage on the subject.

You chose to have children knowing you would rely on tax credits to financially support those children.

It's obviously not a choice your best friend would make and she vocalised that.

I can see why it upset you, it can be uncomfortable when people don't understand or agree with the choices you've made.

Lots of people probably thought the same as her, especially if you were moaning about being skint, they just didn't tell you.

A lot of people on benefits are working and are therefore paying tax themselves.

Your friend sounds quite insensitive and unhelpful and, on that basis, I’d have probably reconsidered the friendship.

However, I have often looked at people in precarious financial positions and wondered why they’d actively choose to bring another child into that situation. I get that financial situations can change for the negative, through no fault of the person, but it’s those who are already struggling and then add another child that I think are nuts. I tend to keep that opinion to myself, though.

OP, I think it’s strange that the comment got to you so much that it’s still with you after all these years. If you made a decision to have three children, surely you were able to justify it to yourself and, therefore, not pay any heed to your friend’s opinion?

Why do you think it’s stayed with you so much?

You do seem very keen on this thread to tell us all how well you’re doing now (you mention your husband’s job, salary, allude to size of your house). It just feels like you look for approval around money.

I’ve been very rich in my life, and I’ve been pretty poor. Lots of people will swing between having money and not having money to some extent over the course of their life. Stuff happens- interest rates go up, redundancies, bad investments, inability to work due to illness, education need being etc. It’s not a reflection of your worth as a person.

@WorraLiberty

Yeah but they're not going to know if you have to go back on benefits are they

Thank you This is actually a very good point and one I hadn't considered. if it does happen I sure as FUCK wouldn't mention it this time to anyone !!

@borntohula

A lot of people on benefits are working and are therefore paying tax themselves.

This is what people forget.

People picking on the poor creeps me out. I know I should feel sorry for their ignorance espicially as 95% of the population are only a redundancy from being on benifits, unlike the 5% truely wealthy who get gov handouts left right and center costing society millions.

Trouble is is coming at it from a different perspective. In her mind she probably think -I'm living at home as I can't afford my own place. Why am I paying tax so someone else can I save for a house deposit / have children etc and for that reason you will never see it the same.

Two friends of mine earn £200K a year between them. They have no children, private healthcare etc good pensions etc. They see themselves hard done by to provide for the rest of society and the NHS, schools etc through tax. It incenses them -especially when two of their friends pretty much live off benefits -council house etc in their mind -they pay for it all not the state but them personally. Unfortunately that's the way they see it -I can see why (don't necesarily agree with it).

To be honest I'd have thought the same as her. I wouldn't have said it though unless you were constantly complaining about it and trying to blame other people for your circumstances (the overpayment that caused the stopping of tax credits). I mean, you had them knowing you had to rely on tax credits I assume to pay bills, or just didn't realise how much extra it would cost.

But at least you were working. There's those who seem to view children as an income from the government and get pregnant deliberately. They don't work and live on benefits. They shouldn't have kids. I've seen people kick their kids out when they can no longer get benefits for them.

You're now in a better place. If you have to use benefits again, so what? That's what they are there for, to help when you're struggling. You haven't had to claim for ages because you worked your way up. It's not like you just went 'eh I'll stick to part time work as it means I get money for free'. Let it go about your friend.

It sounds as though your friend said what she said quite a long time ago and, whilst it was insensitive, people often do say what comes into their head at the time.

My thoughts on you at that particular time is that you did very well and came out of it stronger! However I've been there.

Many years ago husband and I went through a desperate time financially; we didn't really want people to know but sometimes things are obvious, other things just come out. A good friend of husbands said he thought people who got into a financial mess were just poor at managing money, there was no need for it.

A couple of years later he married and had two children after which he and his wife got into no end of debt and bother. I thought of his words then. I hope all ended up satisfactorily, I know the marriage broke up and he eventually remarried, after that we lost touch.

I haven't seen him for years but if I did I wouldn't hold something he once said off the top of his head against him. It's not worth ending a friendship over a stupid remark, especially one made a long time ago.

Your friend is a single woman and doesn't really understand, it isn't worth ending a friendship over a tactless remark made in the past. She must have good points or you wouldn't be friendly with her. However if you do have to claim any benefits in future you don't have to inform her, it's your business and no-one else's. If she ever does say anything so stupid again just tell her firmly she has no idea what she is talking about and leave it at that.

I would let it go OP. Don’t t forgot we can all have an opinion and then we when we live it ourselves we have a different opinion. Don’t forgot if your friend has no children and has circumstances to yourself she won’t really understand until she’s in that situation herself.

A lot of people on benefits are working and are therefore paying tax themselves yes but it’s not a personal savings acc you can withdraw from.
I’m so happy to live in a society where we have a welfare state and I don’t believe life is always as planned- however if I knew someone who planned 3 kids whilst needing additional government support yes I would judge. I would never say it- and well done for pulling yourselves out of the reliance. But I don’t blame people for raising an eye at your initial circumstances.

As for the financial shit hole millions find themselves in- I don’t think anyone is judging

It's not nice to hear but 3 kids under 8 are expensive, many people who have no issues with benefits per se do have an issue with 3+ kids. As it happens you were receiving help then but will have repaid into the system as the helping hand you got enabled you to invest in your dp's career of sorts, for many though the kids are a meal ticket, I know several 4+ kids families with nobody earning, DD's friend is one of 10 kids, nobody earning.

Rather than worry about that comment, be pleased that you proved her wrong, that having kids hasn't meant a lifetime of benefits. If everyone had a similar work ethic we would be able to help more knowing nobody claims for longer than needed, alas not the case

Honestly - loads of people are on the breadline these days, just about scraping by and relying on universal credit or other benefits to get by. It's how life is for millions. I find it a bit smug - all these people saying "Well I wouldn't have had children in your situation". How superior! We can't say only those who are comfortably off can have children. For many it's quite difficult to be comfortably off these days!

It’s a rude thing to actually say to someone but everyone judges everyone for something at some point and I would imagine that’s it’s fairly common to wonder why certain people have so many children when they can’t really afford to do so .

You do seem very keen on this thread to tell us all how well you’re doing now (you mention your husband’s job, salary, allude to size of your house). It just feels like you look for approval around money

@VodselForDinner

You are right !! I hope I don't sound a Twat that I've said all that - I wouldn't say any of this in real life as I'd look materialistic and big headed and that isn't me honestly. but part of the reasons I've stated this is so people realise that I am hopefully now paying back into the system that helped me

But also I look around me and can't believe where I am now. I grew up in poverty. I then never did well at school and I spent much of my adult life skint as fuck, and feeling a total failure even tho I worked my fingers to the bone in shitty jobs from 16 years old .
So my lifestyle is a two fingers up to those who judged me like I was some sort of skank

I felt so much judgement my whole life from all areas not just from the friend I think she was the last straw

They never went without though even when I was on my knees. And you know what ? back then part of me used to question myself that I shouldn't have had any kids let alone 3! Because I wasn't rich and successful!

But right now and in the last couple years since we finally got comfortable financially. they have wanted for NOTHING and have an amazing life and I'm proud of that