"Why have kids if you can't afford them?"

[DianneWhatcock]

Aibu to never forgive this once being said to me ?

My "best friend" since I was a teenager said it to me five years ago and I have never been able to fully move on from it. Because it's given me the unshakeable impression she looks down on me

At the time I was working pt with 3 under 8 inc a baby. Dh working full time in a fairly decent job (more than min wage) plus he had a second job (1/2 evenings a week plus was studying). We were renting and saving to buy. We used to get a small amount of tax credits but we relied on that to make ends meet. we ended up having our tax credits more or less stopped due to an overpayment that would last about a year. I was worried sick at the time as this genuinely really fucked us financially. I told her about it and how worried I was and her response was basically "well why have kids if you can't afford them?" (I should also add she hasn't got kids and lives rent free with her parents - they have a big house)

Nowadays we haven't claimed a penny for years. We own our house (mortgaged) , dh is a high earner I'm working more and we don't even qualify for the very basic child benefit.

However H is furloughed and I guess it's back on my mind. Cos if he ends up redundant we may face having to claim some form of benefits again even temporarily. But the thought terrifies me - I thought I was past that part of my life where I struggled and counted every penny. And I can't stand the thought of being a person that gets judged again (even though I would NEVER judge others that way I am not that kind of person)

I will never ever forget this comment and how shit it made me feel. she never really apologised and I don't know whether to just end the friendship Cos it has just tainted it for ever i think

I know this is a really rambly post so well done anyone who got this far

[SeasonFinale]

I feel.that as a single childless person still living at home she had no idea what she was talking about and woukd laugh of her naivety. If it had been another working parent who knew what it was like I would have less tolerance for them saying something like that.

[TheyWalkAroundInWellies]

It's a stupid phrase really. What does it even mean? If you want to get essentialist about it then nobody should have a child unless they have £150,000 in savings because that's what raising one will cost, according to the ONS. And all you feckless fuckers having children in the hope that your £50k salary will continue to rise for 18 years are woefully underprepared.

But anyway yes amazing story in the OP, proper rags to riches. They should make a telenovela of it showing you having the last laugh and being avenged.

[Babyroobs]

Also nowadays there is no support from Tax credits or Universal credit for a third child . If op was having her kids now and subject to the two child cap, she would likely not qualify for help anyway. The benefits system was a lot more generous a few years ago than it is now for people wanting more than 2 children.

[Babyroobs]

@GreyGardens88

I don't understand how you could be saving for a deposit but also claiming tax credits to "make ends meet"

I generally agree with the sentiment of not having kids unless you can afford them and are financially secure

Because savings do not affect tax credits, tax credits are based purely on earned income. Total opposite to the situation anyone needing to claim Universal credit now faces as you are penalised for having any savings over 6k and over 16k Universal credit would stop completely. Op was in a very fortunate position to have been able to save to buy her own home in the past whilst on tax credits as that is not an option for anyone claiming Uc now, unless you give money to relatives to save for you which I guess amounts to benefit fraud.

[CarpeVitam]

Zombie thread?

[Nesski]

I disagree when people say she is no friend; she is a friend with a large mouth who should have held her tongue. As pp have said, the majority of us agree with what she said but would probably not say it so bluntly but instead help OP with ideas on how to make ends meet, we all probably have a friend that needs some sort of wake up call and you want to shake some sense into them. My partner and I are taxed to our eyeballs, whilst we acknolwedge that money goes to pay for genuine social care needs, there are still individuals that irresponsibly make lifestyle choices, i.e. have children and knowingly that they would be more than likely to use the system as a safety net.

[therealteamdebbie]

@AgeLikeWine

I completely agree with her. People should only have the number of children they can afford to support, and should not expect the taxpayer to pick up the bill for their irresponsible reproductive choices, any more than I expect the taxpayer to pay for our horses. The two child benefit cap is absolutely the right policy.

However, while I might have firm views on this subject I would never voice them so bluntly to a friend who was struggling because their financial circumstances had changed due to factors beyond their control. That would be unkind and rude.

Absolutely.

It's a good thing society provides for unexpected circumstances - and frankly nowhere near enough for some parents who should get a lot more.

But it's irresponsible and beyond selfish to know from the start you won't be able to afford a decent life for your kids.

[malificent7]

She's no friend but loads on mn hold this belief.

[Fleapit]

@Tumbleweed101

Life changes, sometimes people need a hand and sometimes they dont. The government recognises this hence why support is there, even though it isnt always sufficient. I'd imagine this year children have been born to parents who could have afforded them before Covid but now can't.

We would be better looking at our society - why cant a working family afford to raise a child? - than judge those who might need a little support when a child is young. Most of the time it is only for a short time when parents are young and establishing themselves in careers and cant do so many hours as their children are young. For other families it might be because they have become single parents or made redundant.

I absolutely agree, but the OP is quite clear about having had three children while she and her DH juggled three jobs between them (her PT, him FT with a separate weekend job) and still needed tax credits to make ends meet, to the point that when these were stopped, they were ‘financially fucked’ and the OP was terrified.

That’s a precarious situation to deliberately bring three children into. Though of course her friend was insensitive to say so.

[Tumbleweed101]

Life changes, sometimes people need a hand and sometimes they dont. The government recognises this hence why support is there, even though it isnt always sufficient. I'd imagine this year children have been born to parents who could have afforded them before Covid but now can't.

We would be better looking at our society - why cant a working family afford to raise a child? - than judge those who might need a little support when a child is young. Most of the time it is only for a short time when parents are young and establishing themselves in careers and cant do so many hours as their children are young. For other families it might be because they have become single parents or made redundant.

[friendlycat]

I’m afraid I agree with your friend. Why have a third child when you can’t afford it. Three children are expensive.
However I obviously hope your DH is not made redundant.

[FireflyRainbow]

I don't like seeing perfectly able couples with 3 plus kids who don't work. The comments aimed at people like that. Your situation is not like that and yes its rude.

[Sunflowergirl03]

[quote user1936784158962]@Sunflowergirl03

You resurrected a thread from 9 months ago so that you could slag off your neighbour online? [/quote]
I’m new to mumsnet but yeah I did :)

[HikeForward]

I think your friend was insensitive. But maybe she was fed up with hearing you moan about finances and ‘making ends meet’ when you’d chosen to have 3 children before becoming financially secure.

It’s different if you’re already financially secure then something happens to change that eg job loss/illness/bereavement. I think people have a lot more empathy for people in those situations.

Personally I feel confused when a couple make the decision to have more kids if they can’t afford to feed/clothe/house the first without lots of help from the government, FSM etc.
They know how expensive the first is and how difficult it is to live on benefits or find a job when you can’t afford childcare.

But then you get lots of couples who wait until their mid 30s to start a family, wait until their careers are secure and they can afford a house deposit, then tragically have infertility problems (which get harder to treat the older you are).

So I guess there’s something to be said for having kids young. But equally many couples who waited and suffer infertility may be resentful of those who have several kids and live on benefits, especially if they pay high taxes but can’t have their own family?

[picknmix1984]

@user1936784158962 oh I didn't spot that! Honestly some people!

[Fleapit]

@Flutteryb

Growing up in a household where it was a real struggle to make ends meet, yes it's selfish to have more than you can afford. It's one thing if circumstances change, but quite another to make a conscious decision to when already stretched. And no, there's nothing wrong with claiming benefits if needed, that's surely what they are there for.

This. I’m the eldest of a large family and we were very poor, and my parents kept having children without thinking through the implications for the children they already had. It was a miserably precarious way to grow up, quite aside from the lack of food, space etc, and I was aware from a far too young age of just how close we were to homelessness.

I am utterly sympathetic to people to whom an unexpected disaster occurs, and absolutely, benefits are there to be claimed when needed, but I think deliberately having children you can’t support is irresponsible and has a long-lived impact on the children.

[jacks11]

I too agree that people shouldn’t have children they can’t afford. The welfare state is a good thing, but in my view it should be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice. If a person or family rely on benefits for their income, I don’t think it is a time anyone should be planning to have a child (or more than one).

I have a set income and it does not change whether I choose to have 1 or 10 children. Nobody will come along and rehouse me if I need more bedrooms than i can afford. Same should apply to everyone. I think their is a perception that some are choosing to rely on benefits rather than it being a necessity for a period of time, that most object to.

In your friend’s position, however, I would have kept my thoughts to myself. It wasn’t very helpful of her. If you can’t get passed it, best let the friendship drift.

[user88899]

To be fair it sounds like you took a risk and weren't in a very good financial position to have a 3rd child. I don't say that with judgement, we were somewhat similar in that we took a risk and had children before being financially established in order to prioritise our age instead and although being in a very strong position now with Primary school children (and no regrets) I do look back now with hindsight and recognise the risk we took. Your risk paid off so I'm not sure why you are dwelling on it.

[IceCreamAndCandyfloss]

I think many would think the same in that parents should be responsible for their children not others.

Its a choice to have a child/multiple children and not hard to work out that it’s going to be expensive.

[user1936784158962]

@Sunflowergirl03

You resurrected a thread from 9 months ago so that you could slag off your neighbour online?

[MoroSun]

I agree with your friend but would probably have kept my opinion to myself

[Sunflowers095]

@Nellydean21

The reason people get worked up about people on benefits who continue to have children is because they feel they, it they are tax payers, are paying for it.
Which they are. The welfare state is a fantastic humane aspect of any civilised society but when others perceive people relying on it they understandably think, why should I work so that person can breed more while knowing they cany afford it.

Again most people will never say this.

I agree.

Having lived outside of the UK and in the UK I'm surprised how casual the approach to benefits is here.

Let's address the fact that no one is entitled to kids. They're not an object. Ideally wages would be better, but they're not. So if you want kids, you should probably also plan a life where you can support them financially.

I'm on a comfortable salary now and own a home, but don't have savings and I'm not married. Wouldn't even cross my mind to have kids as I don't feel I'd be anywhere close to enough financial stability. Yet I know many people younger than me, working on zero hour contracts, also not married (only mentioning this as it's less financial protection) and in rented accommodation having kids.

Once you have kids it's so much harder to study, retrain, relocate for a job if you have to, save, etc. Doing it backwards doesn't benefit anyone, especially not the children involved.

Ready to get flamed for this but oh well..

[PurpleFlower1983]

I would also secretly think it about someone who had 3 young children and wasn’t financially secure.

[jimmyjammy001]

You told her you didn't have any money and were looking for sympathy, but she obviously knows you and that you have got 3 kids which aren't cheap, so she was maybe just pointing out the obvious, if you were claiming the benefits and decided to have more kids then she is kind of right, if you allready had the kids and a change in circumstances meant you then had to claim then that's just life we all fall on hard times sometime.

[thecatsthecats]

My husband and I are very financially cautious. We're both high earners, and neither of us would want to live with the risk of having to spend our last penny on supporting multiple children, or going through "lean years" to do manage having kids/mortgage/pension worries all at the same time.

(We prioritised getting one thing kicked off well at a time, so did mortgage, then started building up pensions and in a year or two we'll have a kid.)

It's not so much a position of judgement, but a feeling of alienation that someone could willingly have a third kid if they were already financially insecure.

OP's friend was definitely a dick, because you don't say that to a friend, but I think the principle of thinking about your own relative financial security for having additional children is a good one.