"Why have kids if you can't afford them?"

[DianneWhatcock]

Aibu to never forgive this once being said to me ?

My "best friend" since I was a teenager said it to me five years ago and I have never been able to fully move on from it. Because it's given me the unshakeable impression she looks down on me

At the time I was working pt with 3 under 8 inc a baby. Dh working full time in a fairly decent job (more than min wage) plus he had a second job (1/2 evenings a week plus was studying). We were renting and saving to buy. We used to get a small amount of tax credits but we relied on that to make ends meet. we ended up having our tax credits more or less stopped due to an overpayment that would last about a year. I was worried sick at the time as this genuinely really fucked us financially. I told her about it and how worried I was and her response was basically "well why have kids if you can't afford them?" (I should also add she hasn't got kids and lives rent free with her parents - they have a big house)

Nowadays we haven't claimed a penny for years. We own our house (mortgaged) , dh is a high earner I'm working more and we don't even qualify for the very basic child benefit.

However H is furloughed and I guess it's back on my mind. Cos if he ends up redundant we may face having to claim some form of benefits again even temporarily. But the thought terrifies me - I thought I was past that part of my life where I struggled and counted every penny. And I can't stand the thought of being a person that gets judged again (even though I would NEVER judge others that way I am not that kind of person)

I will never ever forget this comment and how shit it made me feel. she never really apologised and I don't know whether to just end the friendship Cos it has just tainted it for ever i think

I know this is a really rambly post so well done anyone who got this far

[Isthisfinallyit]

I do think that when people plan a pregnancy when they know they can't afford it. Having said that, most families I know that are having financial difficulties, are where they are because something happened after the kids were born, like lost a job or got ill or had a SN child that can't just go to a childminder or normal school or whatever. That I totally understand because that just can happen to anyone, regardless of how you start out.

[Starcup]

There’s a reason the tax credits cap came about. This example IS the reason.

It’s terrible that the living/minimum wage is so low that a couple between them working, still need top ups.

It’s awful and I don’t begrudge a couple who both work but get top ups for two children.

But I do agree with the cap on two children. I think most people do

[Happynow001]

well why have kids if you can't afford them?" (I should also add she hasn't got kids and lives rent free with her parents - they have a big house)
I'm sad that someone would actually say that to a friend especially as she's living rent free herself. She seemed, in that rather mean and careless "broad brush" comment just lumped you in with those who make no attempt to work and are happy to live off the taxpayer and see it as a right...

[AllTheUserNamesAreTaken]

The thing is benefits should be there for people who need them, either through ill health, disability, job loss, or change of circumstances such as relationship breakdown.

By having three children you couldn’t afford you wilfully put yourself in the position of needing benefits. That’s not on, IMHO.

I can understand someone who is getting older (so running out of time) having one child whilst knowing they will need to claim benefits. But having multiple children you know from the outset you cannot afford is wrong.

I have one child. We waited until we could afford to. Never once did I look to see what benefits I could claim, to see if that meant we could afford to have a child sooner. It just didn’t enter my head.
Having to wait is one reason we only have one child, unfortunately.

Your DH was presumably training or on track for a well paid job. Why not wait until then before having children, or at least don’t have three! It can’t have come as a surprise that kids are expensive

I don’t blame your friend for thinking it, but it wasn’t kind to say it when you were already down. That’s quite hurtful. I can understand why it would stay with you - I know unkind comments friends have made in the past have certainly stayed with me

[AntiHop]

Seems like this thread is a stealth beast tbh. Go on then, how did your dh go from low wage to £70k?

[Bookoffacts]

Plenty of people get tax credits myself included. We don't all earn over 60,000 ffs.
I work full time as a teacher with decades of experience and first class degree and I get tax credits.
Nasty right wing sentiments on here are appalling.

[Mumoblue]

I'll get worked up about benefits when the rich pay their taxes. Not before.
I was in a great position just before my son was born, and then financially everything went to shit and we've ended up on benefits again.
I hate it. I hate the judgement, I hate how it makes me feel, I hate that I can't save. I could go on.

Unfortunately life can knock you down whenever. People who are comfortable shouldn't feel guilty, but they shouldn't look down on people on benefits. I dont want to be on benefits and I'm much less of a drain than billionaire tax dodgers.

[Mushypeasandchipstogo]

I would never say this out loud to a friend but certainly agree with the sentiment.

[Ginfordinner]

It's not a nice thing for a supposed friend to say. But I would probably think it silently if someone had chosen to have three kids in fairly quick succession while not being particularly financially secure 🤷‍♀️ It's not a lifestyle choice I would make, but I would never say that to a friend or volunteer that opinion when not being asked.

I would never say anything either, but would probably think it.

When DD was at primary school I used to frequent the primary school threads on here. They were full of parents with 3+ children complaining about the cost of school dinners, school uniform, school trips, non uniform days etc etc. Surely they factor this in when choosing to have the number of children that they have?

[DianneWhatcock]

@SallyWD

Honestly - loads of people are on the breadline these days, just about scraping by and relying on universal credit or other benefits to get by. It's how life is for millions. I find it a bit smug - all these people saying "Well I wouldn't have had children in your situation". How superior! We can't say only those who are comfortably off can have children. For many it's quite difficult to be comfortably off these days!

Well said !

[tentative3]

I agree with a lot of the comments on here, I wouldn't say it to a friend unless the friend was being unreasonable themselves and I recognise things change in life and no one can plan for everything. I don't have an issue with benefits, I agree they don't exactly make for a luxury life and think it's awful that working people are sometimes paid so badly they still need benefits to survive.

However, actively choosing to bring children into a poor financial situation is something I disagree with and I think it's a particularly surprising choice when people already have children. I don't think people have a right to just produce children and expect others to pay for them. I recognise and understand the argument that children should not only be for the financially stable and don't know how to reconcile that with my opinions.

[MimiLaRue]

I would never say anything either, but would probably think it

I would too. I grew up really very poor and there are things that happened in my childhood that I will never get over.

I'm sorry but I do judge people who have kids they cannot afford. I wouldnt say it, but I would certainly be thinking it based on my experiences as a child.

[Ginfordinner]

Mumoblu I would never judge anyone for being on benefits. When DD was born she had some serious health issues which meant that I had to give up work. I received carer's allowanca and DLA. I did not feel judged ot guilty because I had paid taxes and NI contributions for over 2 years before having her.

[kgal3542]

If everyone waited until they could afford children, the earth's population would plummet (is this the correct spelling?
The "friend" who made asked the question forming the title of this thread was probably jealous, i bet life is easier when you are continually being bailed out by your parents.
I was in similar circumstances many years ago, and I mentioned shopping at Sainsburys for a few things, to a friend. She replied
"Things are v expensive at Sainsburys, how can you afford it?"
To this day, I still feel resentful that this friend rubbed poverty in my face. I thought the comment was condescending and unnecessary.
I'm pleased that your situation improved. Covid 19 has put so many of us on hold, just count your blessings and keep on trucking.

[AJPTaylor]

People say stuff sometimes that shows they have not the slightest idea who you are or how other people function.
Very very good friend of mine was going through a terrible time due to a series of events that were outside her control. Ended up as a single parent to 3 kids on a debt management plan. Her kids were damn fine children. Never once complained about having nothing spent on them. Literally had no expectations. The one thing she had was a basic sky package at 20 quid a month. That was all their entertainment. One childless friend who owned her house outright was vocal about how they couldn't be poor because they had Sky.

[pointythings]

I think it's an awful comment in general, because financial disaster can happen to literally anyone - including the smug who think they will be alright no matter what. Redundancy, serious illness or accident leading to disability, a child with lifelong care needs requiring a full time carer at home - it can all happen to absolutely anyone. That comment epitomises the arrogance of a lot of people and it's why we have this culture of looking down on people who are less well off. People need to learn some humility.

[MrsNettle]

@greyGardens88
I generally agree with the sentiment of not having kids unless you can afford them and are financially secure
If there is anything that the current pandemic has taught us, is that no-one is financially secure, bar the top 1%

[IndecentFeminist]

It's the sort of thing I would have thought in my younger days. I grew up in a big house, at private school, with torygraph/mail reading parents.

However a decade or so later, with kids, and all the increase in perspective that that gives, I wouldn't feel/say it so strongly.

MN opened my eyes to a lot of different viewpoints when I first joined a dozen or so years ago.

[MrsNettle]

...and the NHS staff, at least for now.

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

It's a staggeringly rude thing to say to anyone, regardless.

Many people do not choose to have a baby in financially-poor circumstances - the baby might be accidental, and them not believe in terminating; they might have been financially ok before having the baby but circumstances happened which changed things for them; the mother might have found that she was in danger and had to leave, thus creating a single parent family where finances are tougher, for just a few examples. There will be more.

Some people DO choose to have a baby despite not having the wherewithal to support them easily - but that doesn't mean they're bad people. Sometimes the biological imperative takes over, sometimes (again) it's accidental but they can't terminate, sometimes they're just desperate for a family because they've had a horrible background or similar - and no doubt other reasons too.

Very few people choose to have babies to supplement their income.

But really no one should judge unless they're having to pay for that person's child(ren) out of their own pocket - taxes do not count in this instance.

[DianneWhatcock]

Awww @kgal3542 that's horrible

[Fralla]

Seems like this thread is a stealth beast tbh. Go on then, how did your dh go from low wage to £70k?

It’s not impossible, is it? Most people on £70k started out on a much lower wage.


I kind of recognise what you’re saying OP. After I had my second child we relied on benefits for 18 months (exDH was a low earner and I had just finished uni). It wasn’t ideal of course but it was what it was.

Since DC2 was 18 months I have been working full time and really grafting. I’m now divorced, a higher rate tax payer and like you not even entitled to child benefit.

Still, I have a friend who loves to take every opportunity to bring up the fact that I used to be on benefits in front of people. It’s so fucking frustrating that she can’t let this go, it’s been 8 years now since I stopped receiving any benefits!!! She makes it sounds like I was scrounging off the tax payer for years and years. Yet I still don’t feel like I can pull her up on it because it makes me sound petty and pedantic.

[BlueJava]

Why would you worry about something said 5 year's ago? Surely let it go - some friends work out, some don't. Dwelling on things that upset you just drain mental energy.

[NeutrinoWrangler]

It's a strange, rude thing to say to a friend, but honestly, I don't respect people who intentionally have more children than they can afford to give a decent life. (It's one thing if you fall on hard times unexpectedly and need help. I'm talking about people who know full well that they can't afford to feed and care for additional children, but selfishly go on having them anyway.)

If it's still bothering you, obviously you don't have to keep being friends with her. You don't need anyone's approval or vote of "reasonableness" to break off a friendship. Honestly, I can't imagine someone who was a good friend behaving that way, so it probably wouldn't be that much of a loss.

[TARSCOUT]

At the time I was working pt with 3 under 8 inc a baby. Dh working full time in a fairly decent job (more than min wage) plus he had a second job (1/2 evenings a week plus was studying). We were renting and saving to buy. We used to get a small amount of tax credits but we relied on that to make ends meet.
To be fair you actually couldn't afford to have 3 children could you. She was wrong to say it I agree but not wrong to think it.