"Why have kids if you can't afford them?"

[DianneWhatcock]

Aibu to never forgive this once being said to me ?

My "best friend" since I was a teenager said it to me five years ago and I have never been able to fully move on from it. Because it's given me the unshakeable impression she looks down on me

At the time I was working pt with 3 under 8 inc a baby. Dh working full time in a fairly decent job (more than min wage) plus he had a second job (1/2 evenings a week plus was studying). We were renting and saving to buy. We used to get a small amount of tax credits but we relied on that to make ends meet. we ended up having our tax credits more or less stopped due to an overpayment that would last about a year. I was worried sick at the time as this genuinely really fucked us financially. I told her about it and how worried I was and her response was basically "well why have kids if you can't afford them?" (I should also add she hasn't got kids and lives rent free with her parents - they have a big house)

Nowadays we haven't claimed a penny for years. We own our house (mortgaged) , dh is a high earner I'm working more and we don't even qualify for the very basic child benefit.

However H is furloughed and I guess it's back on my mind. Cos if he ends up redundant we may face having to claim some form of benefits again even temporarily. But the thought terrifies me - I thought I was past that part of my life where I struggled and counted every penny. And I can't stand the thought of being a person that gets judged again (even though I would NEVER judge others that way I am not that kind of person)

I will never ever forget this comment and how shit it made me feel. she never really apologised and I don't know whether to just end the friendship Cos it has just tainted it for ever i think

I know this is a really rambly post so well done anyone who got this far

@Paperchainpopp

There's always gonna be an excuse to have more kids than you can afford. People's circumstances change, some people are religious or couldn't have an abortion for other reasons.
I'm one of 6 kids. I grew up poor. I dont think I have the right to tell my parents that me or any of my siblings, shouldn't exist.

Not that I'm totally excusing irresponsibility. I have one son, and as I mentioned before, right now we're on benefits because my partner lost his job suddenly. I wouldn't want to have another kid until we can provide better, and even then I'm considering just having one to give him all the opportunities I can.

It's a difficult position and I think those in better circumstances are often too quick to judge and too slow to empathise.

Actually I feel like I need to clarify. Me being one of 6 is the result of a single mum meeting a single dad. My parents definitely did not just have 6 kids for the fun of it, but families like mine certainly get affected by finances and lumped in with people who have kids "for benefits."

Finial disaster has already been mentioned and if you loose your job or you are abused or raped things like this are very different. This is not the matter at hand though is it let’s not be obtuse I agree anybody can loose their jobs and have to claim benefits nobody is above however this is not that case being mentioned

@Mumoblue I’m 1/4 so you can’t assume that somebody lacks empathy. Maybe everyone’s priorities are different. You can’t be upset that someone comments on someone having kids KNOWINGLY when money is tight. People feel too entitled these days you don’t have the right to question your parents but what I find upsetting is when someone has a nonchalant approach to having children yet they don’t want to take responsibility. I’m sorry but I don’t think it’s fair. Also a good friend needs to tell you truth it may not be nice but I’d rather my friend kept it real.

@Mumoblue it’s all relative I’m not sure of your age. But large family’s were a thing from back in the day. My nana was from a large poor family and so was my father. Totally different times. In today’s world we are all aware of things like housing issues and schools so for me I don’t think it’s about someone’s situation necessarily been better. I read often that people we love another child but money is a big reason they hold off.

I am in two minds about this. I think that a change in circumstances is a reasonable argument to need help but I very much disagree with people having additional children, if they know they cannot afford them. To rely on the efforts of others to fund your choices, is selfish.

In my block of 4 flats, I have at times been the only person in work. Admittedly, I resent it less now that I am not dragging myself out of the house early, while they all sleep peacefully, to sit in a packed train, to sit in an office every day, to pay my taxes. I am enjoying the freedom as well...still working though!

I wouldn't give it much thought to be honest. Its another one of the things said without having much thought into it and also from people who don't have kdis (from my experience anyway) any parent I speak to says the same thing "if you wait until you can afford kids, you'll being waiting forever"

@Paperchainpopp

Sorry I was unclear, I wasnt trying to suggest you personally are not empathetic. I was just kind of stating that we all need to try and be empathetic after we judge, because it's really easy to judge first.

I'm only 30, but my nan was one of 11, so I definitely get that bigger families used to be much more common.

It's strange being from a bigger family, because at the same time you want the same big loving family but you also want to have a smaller family to focus more on your kids the way you maybe didn't get when you were a kid. Or at least that's how I see it.

I dont think I'd ever have more than 2, personally.

So I'm a prime example of having kids I couldn't afford. Except it never occurred to me at the time that it was an issue, because I knew I would get benefits. My mum never worked (mental health and other issues) so I was brought up poor, on benefits and so were many of our family friends and relatives. It was normal to us.
When I got pregnant at 20 from a casual relationship, my parter was working but on a low wage and we moved in together using the 'safety net' of housing benefit and tax credits to support us. I already had several friends who were in the same position, pregnant young, low wage partner, benefits.
Got pregnant twice more over the following 3 years and never once considered finance as a reason not to (none of the pregnancies were planned, I was shit at birth control!) as I knew benefits would go up.
This was just normal in the lives of those around me and it never occurred to me that it was wrong, that was just how poor people had children.

Now I have more experience of the world I can see why others feel this is totally unfair, as it is. I get that. But I wasn't going to turn down the 'free money' and never raise a family because we were poor. I don't feel that I should be ashamed of my 'choices' because I am where I am and it is what it is and we're all OK.

'Choice' is bandied around a lot, but I think people's socioeconomic backgrounds and the culture they grow up in influence their choices to the point where choice isn't always a choice. It isn't like I was brought up to think about family planning (myself and my sisters from different fathers were all unplanned), saving for a home (mum always rented), career planning (didn't know anyone with a careeror who had even been to university, I left school at 16 with 4 gcses) and sensible stuff like that.
If I'd grown up with two parents, a mum without mental illness, a decent education, a home that wasn't full of alcohol, drugs and domestic violence, financial stability etc then maybe I'd have learned to make different 'choices' but perhaps choice itself is a privilege?

I'm in a much better position now and am raising my children differently to my parents, in a stable environment and focusing on the importance of education and work and planning for the future. My children won't be another generation like myself and my siblings, because they will have choices that didn't seem available to me.

@Gammeldragz I get what you are saying and agree for 1-2 children. But it's when it's 3+ that it's starting to take the piss really, lots of good earning households choose to stop at 2 children for financial reasons, this is why I generally support the UC cap at 2 kids. The fact you never stopped to think whether you could/should have a third for financial reasons shows the flaws in the system. I remember when we had our second, we were lower income earners at the time and I worked out I would have been more financially better off having a third and staying at home then I would have been sticking at two and going to work (in the short to medium term at least, this was before the cap). That is wrong.

Everyone should pause and think about money, while I agree raising children shouldn't be the privilege of the rich, the fact people are having 3+ children without needing to seriously consider the financial considerations is too far the other way. I don't think we have an inherent right to procreate as many times as we want.

It's also a poverty trap IMO.

I’m part of a large family, common in my catholic school. It was actually rarer to only be a 2 child family.
I had a friend from being tiny, one of two. She knew what it was like for me, lack of space, money, trips, opportunities.
So she has 5 children now and is constantly complaining about lack of money, how they can’t travel together, over crowding. She chose to have these children. She’s not stupid but somehow didn’t learn anything from the people she grew up with.
She did fall into the trap of going on about how having an extra one when they were small ‘doesn’t cost anymore’. She now has 5 teenagers and no money. I feel sorry for them, she can’t give any of them any money for uni, they’ve never been on holiday together. She has a teenage girl who is desperate for some nice clothes, she has no sympathy, which is worse as she did have this money growing up and lots more opportunities than her children will ever get.
But then she also married a total waster and was surprised that’s what she was married to with five children (and now divorced from).

@Gammeldragz it’s interesting to hear your side of the coin how honest. I do agree about family background and parents playing a part. I can understand how it may of seemed the norm as other people were doing similar in your circle too. But after 2 kids did you honestly not know any better? I suppose like you said you weren’t going to turn the opportunity down as it’s the system that is wrong also.

[quote notheragain4]@Gammeldragz I get what you are saying and agree for 1-2 children. But it's when it's 3+ that it's starting to take the piss really, lots of good earning households choose to stop at 2 children for financial reasons, this is why I generally support the UC cap at 2 kids. The fact you never stopped to think whether you could/should have a third for financial reasons shows the flaws in the system. I remember when we had our second, we were lower income earners at the time and I worked out I would have been more financially better off having a third and staying at home then I would have been sticking at two and going to work (in the short to medium term at least, this was before the cap). That is wrong.

Everyone should pause and think about money, while I agree raising children shouldn't be the privilege of the rich, the fact people are having 3+ children without needing to seriously consider the financial considerations is too far the other way. I don't think we have an inherent right to procreate as many times as we want.[/quote]
I completely agree and I do also feel it is a poverty trap. I agree the system is set up wrong if it means I could have 3 kids and someone who did things 'properly' and worked hard for it can't. At the time of course I never thought about that. I was young and uneducated and didn't know much other than the lifestyle I grew up with.
I did actually consider an abortion with my 3rd pregnancy, for both financial and practical reasons, but for various reasons I didn't. I did have an abortion 6 years later as I was working by then and due to start my degree and 4 children seemed like too much for a lot of reasons. Financially being only one of them, I also finally had a career plan and prospects I could only have dreamed of. But I'd grown up a lot by then and was a lot more clued up about things.

[quote Paperchainpopp]@Gammeldragz it’s interesting to hear your side of the coin how honest. I do agree about family background and parents playing a part. I can understand how it may of seemed the norm as other people were doing similar in your circle too. But after 2 kids did you honestly not know any better? I suppose like you said you weren’t going to turn the opportunity down as it’s the system that is wrong also.[/quote]
I suppose because we were no more poor having 3 than having 2 at that point (again, I stress that none of the pregnancies were planned, no one I knew planned to have children, it just happened and you dealt with it). They were all small, I was still only 24 when I had my 3rd and I hadn't really got my head around future planning, life was all firefighting small crises (like my husband's addiction and MH problems) and living in poverty was what people did in my life experience. But even then my home life was a lot more stable and better off than what I grew up with!
I could have gone to work, sent them to childcare etc, but the way benefits worked then I'd only be £35 better off for every £100 I earned and I wanted to stay at home with them while they were little as that what everyone I knew did!
These days, with a wider social circle and living in a middle class village, I see what a privilege this was.
However it was also a poverty trap because it took a long time to get out of that mindset and see the value of a better education and a career. Mumsnet probably helped to some extent as I was exposed to other views and experience outside my own.

I went to work when youngest was 3, to get some experience and studied with the OU to increase my chance of going to university, which I did when I turned 30. I now a have a degree, a professional job with good potential (Nurse) a pension and am planning how we can save a deposit and eventually hopefully buy a house, though I accept due to my 'poor choices' this is very difficult as we've done it all the wrong way around. My siblings have none of these things, so I suppose I'm still an outlier in our family as I've broken the mould!

That’s so nice to hear good for you. You definitely sound like you’ve worked hard.

@Paperchainpopp

That’s so nice to hear good for you. You definitely sound like you’ve worked hard.

Thank you, I am proud of how far I've come considering where I came from! The past 7 years or so I've totally changed my life around and so has DH, it's been a lot of work and we're still not fully financially independent for various reasons but another year and we will be there. I try to support my sisters and encourage them to make good choices, but they've got their own struggles (one has bipolar, the other had an abusive partner and is now a single mum) and I hope that just setting an example will help them see that life doesn't have to be the way we were raised.

Unless you have experience of it, it's very easy to judge people like us as just making poor choices without taking into account the context in which these choices are being made...

But again, I agree the benefits system doesn't help. A universal basic income would be much more equitable. It should never be the case that people are 'better off' not working and I do feel it traps people in the system.

I do find it interesting that the 'don't have children if you can't afford them' arguments are only ever aimed at people in this country, while across the world in developing countries and slums people continue to have children in utter poverty and starvation situations. Do we judge them for that? OK, they maybe don't have contraception and abortions but is anyone saying they just shouldn't have sex and should all die out?
Are those women 'choosing' to have children they can't afford?

Choice is rarely a simple concept if you really look at it.

Gammeldragz your honesty is very refreshing and you’ve clearly put in a lot of hard work. It sounds like you’re kids have good role models in both you and your DH

It’s different when someone looses their income through no fault of their own. That’s the whole point of a welfare system to prevent unforeseen unfortunate circumstances creating long term hardships. It’s completely different to having children knowing you won’t be able to afford them.

@Gammeldragz often those children aren’t a result of people having sexual though, in many cases it’s a result of marital rape which women are obliged to put up with. Many people in this world are also quite ignorant of where exactly children come from thinking that god decides when they conceive and that therefore any such event is right and good. You simply can’t compare people in Britain who have no excuse to people living in abject poverty in countries with limited access to sex education, legal protection for women, contraception and abortion. It’s not the same thing.

Women in other Countries though such as? Anyway where like Ghana does not have a welfare state hence why they are 3rd world and have severe poverty I seen this with my own eyes when I’ve travelled to similar places. The government is corrupt and there’s a lot of complicated issues. A lot of them have aids and other health conditions due to have no free NHS and things like that. You do realise that we are 6th wealthiest don’t you? How could this be fare to compare. The children they are would literally walk for miles just to be able to get water from a well and in order to go to school without shoes on their feet. Are you actually a nurse and you’ve made such a statement. It’s not a competition.

Rape and prostitution is a massive issue also they don’t have easy access to family planning and so on. I think it’s rather mean you have compared the two just because some have pointed out people should take finicial responsibility. Go on and travel to a 3rd world Country it’s heartbreaking they work so hard for so little money.

@Gammeldragz it's not really comparable. Women in third world countries don't always have the privilege of choosing when to have children. Education and contraception is not always freely available, they're also very much dictated to by religion. Plus with higher child death rates and poverty multiple children are required to help provide and support families. There are lots of reasons progressive societies have smaller families.

It's the fact women in this country do have more education and options that it makes them an easier target to judge, I think. That said I still think you made some very good points earlier and it's easy to forget people have different life experiences and I can see how the choice isn't always as visible for all women when they have had a different upbringing.

@Paperchainpopp

Women in other Countries though such as? Anyway where like Ghana does not have a welfare state hence why they are 3rd world and have severe poverty I seen this with my own eyes when I’ve travelled to similar places. The government is corrupt and there’s a lot of complicated issues. A lot of them have aids and other health conditions due to have no free NHS and things like that. You do realise that we are 6th wealthiest don’t you? How could this be fare to compare. The children they are would literally walk for miles just to be able to get water from a well and in order to go to school without shoes on their feet. Are you actually a nurse and you’ve made such a statement. It’s not a competition.

Rape and prostitution is a massive issue also they don’t have easy access to family planning and so on. I think it’s rather mean you have compared the two just because some have pointed out people should take finicial responsibility. Go on and travel to a 3rd world Country it’s heartbreaking they work so hard for so little money.

That was kind of my point though. It's just an extreme example of why you can't judge other people's life choices because they are in a different situation. I am fully aware of all the issues you mentioned. That's why no one says they should not be having children.

Of course the situation in this country could never be as extreme as that, but just because the differences are extreme doesn't mean they aren't there and don't contribute to outcomes.

Women are very quick to judge and leap on each other while also claiming a moral high ground. My point was more trying to say that we wouldn't judge women in completely different situations so why not accept that some people's situations and backgrounds are different enough to influence their 'choices'.

We may be a highly developed and wealthy county in general, but there is still glaring inequality.

Yanbu. Something similar was said to me by my ex’s ex wife. When I was mid way through my pregnancy with my 4th child. She had a problem with every child I had but the 4th one made her completely blow her top at me.
My ex always paid his way for his child with his ex wife, but he lost his job shortly after I found out I was pregnant and she still expected the same level of maintenance. The pregnancy just gave her an excuse to stick the boot in about how we were having a child we “couldn’t afford” just because she wasn’t getting the money temporarily. But if he didn’t have the money then how could he give it? His other children were getting nothing too. My unborn baby had absolutely fuck all to do with her her child not getting any maintenance.

It’s always stuck with me and I hate her for it. Why do people think they have the right to say shitty things to you like that?

Ohhh dear. Just because someone has a different opinion doesn’t mean we are leaping on women and pulling them down. I’m not sure how your example correlates. In UK a lot of poor choices are self inflicted and people depend on well fare state knowingly money is a struggle but they continue to feel entitled because they are ones reproducing the child and they will be “funded” it’s the harsh truthful reality.

I stand by my previous posts at the start of the thread.

I found your story interesting but not everybody has been born with a silver spoon in their mouth either. Coming from a chaotic life myself it’s still my responsibility to make wise decisions. Other wise where do you draw the line. The cycle would never end....