You're white you cannot experience racism 3

[PatricksRum]

And it continues. Thank you for those black people who took the time to share their stories once again.

@Whataloadofshite @BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup @CandyLeBonBon @WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee
Thank you all.

Because if those travellers also had black faces believe it or not they'd be worse off.

For any given set of circumstances they would be worse if you are black

*Twice as likely to be accepted.

Are you saying then that the same number of eligible black students apply as white students but white students are twice as likely to be accepted?*

Again this is calculated to represent the ethnic percentages who applied

For example.
20white people applied
10 black people applied.

15 white people were accepted
5 black people were accepted.

15/20 = 3/4 of white people were accepted
5/10 = 1/2 of black people were accepted

More white people were accepted

Conclusion: you're more likely to be accepted if you are white

Zebras- you have been told via statistics and anecdote that there are very few black students at Cambridge

Do you seriously deny that the reason for that is racism?

It does not actually matter if they are not applying or not getting the grades or not being accepted despite getting the grades and applying. All these are due to racism whether direct or indirect

@PatricksRum

*Twice as likely to be accepted.

Are you saying then that the same number of eligible black students apply as white students but white students are twice as likely to be accepted?*

Again this is calculated to represent the ethnic percentages who applied

For example.
20white people applied
10 black people applied.

15 white people were accepted
5 black people were accepted.

15/20 = 3/4 of white people were accepted
5/10 = 1/2 of black people were accepted

More white people were accepted

Conclusion: you're more likely to be accepted if you are white

Can you link to those statistics?

@PatricksRum

When I lived in London I was considered Irish, even if I hadn't spoken. I, apparently, 'look' Irish. The same can apply to Travellers. Can I ask how you look Irish? How are they able to determine your background from your face alone?

I have dark hair, blue eyes and an 'Irish' face (that's what they told me). I don't know why they thought I was Irish solely based on my face but they were correct.

I firmly believe Irish people have experienced systemic racism in England. The example given of "No blacks, no Irish" is an example. My father moved to London in the 1950s. He had a strong Irish accent. For some reason the landlord thought he said he was a paki (I don't agree with the word, I'm stating the facts) so let him move in, only to evict him weeks later when he found out he was Irish. During those weeks living there, my father paid his rent, went to and from his lodgings and caused no trouble. Yet, by virtue of being Irish, he was evicted. I don't accept this is racial prejudice. It's outright racism.

OP, you ask white people to acknowledge and understand the racism experienced by black people. You are right to ask this. I acknowledge it, am horrified by it and trying to do better, including ensuring my children are educated about it. Please do white people who have experienced racism the same courtesy. Don't demean what people like my father went through as prejudice. Be open to the fact that white people can experience racism, as BAME, Travellers etc do.

Please be aware that In the hierarchy you talk about, the English version historically had Irish people low down.

*Could you explain how that white privilege is expressed then?

In a group of people that you've been told rarely access education past primary school, are repeatedly evicted, currently many have no access to water, face barriers to getting medical care, have lower life expectancy, are abused in the street, are turned away from shops restaurants etc - can you explain where they are more privileged than you? How do you think they benefit?*

Simply because they are white they are not treated the same.

Say rich people are treated better than poor people.

We have 4 people
1 rich white person
1 rich black person
1 poor white person
1 poor black person

The 2 white people are 50% more likely to be accepted into University because they don't have black-sounding names.

The 2 poor people are being abused because they are poor. Both people buy a suit. The white poor person is now viewed as rich. The black poor person is still viewed as black.

The way you keep picking at this and the custody stats and so many other issues really looks like you have an agenda.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt but the evidence of your posts is overwhelming

I will no longer engage with you
Other can make their own choice

From Oxford's website: "Oxford University has announced that more than 22% of undergraduate students starting in 2019 were Britons from Black and Minority Ethnic (BAME) backgrounds – up from 18% on the previous year’s UCAS admissions statistics.The overall proportion of Black students admitted is up from 2.6% in 2018 to 3.1% in 2019."

@WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee

Zebras- you have been told via statistics and anecdote that there are very few black students at Cambridge

Do you seriously deny that the reason for that is racism?

It does not actually matter if they are not applying or not getting the grades or not being accepted despite getting the grades and applying. All these are due to racism whether direct or indirect

No I'm not denying that there are more white students at Oxford.

I'm trying to understand where the bias or discrimination occurs.

If equal numbers of suitably qualified students apply but only a quarter of black students get in, then discrimination is occurring at the institution.

If 100 white people apply but only 5 black.people apply for whatever reason - not high enough grades, poverty of aspiration - then that is a failure of the system lower down isn't it? Oxford can't admit equal numbers of black students if much lower numbers apply in the first place.

Essentially being poor and having poor opportunities aren't exclusive to white people alone but poor people as a whole.

You can be poor and black. - both things are underprivileged.
You can be poor and white - only one thing is underprivileged (poor)

PatricksRum

I struggle with the white privilege label, I haven't experienced or witnessed racism from a Black person's pov, let's get that straight.
But, I think it does nothing to inform just creates a bigger divide.
I'm Romany and have a black cousin, he has taken on the sadness of recent events and has been flying the flag for "Black Lives Matter".
However, June is our education month, I should have been very busy on a tour of schools, informing of our history.
We are doing everything online now, but obviously the first lectures from our European agencies were postponed in support.
But he is continuing the fight as a Romany now, he says he has to because whilst being black he's also Romany.
Unless you belong to a particular race of course you don't understand how that race suffers, but this applies to everyone. All lives should matter and nobody should be fearful for their life when they are going about their business.

More statistics : fullfact.org/education/bme-students-oxford/

Can you link to those statistics?
That one was a made up scenario to explain how they calculate their figures as you asked if it was proportional to the make up of applications received.

Patricks - so I am now even more confused. You can't define black other than skin colour, except it's not just skin colour as some people you acknowledge are very dark skinned but not black. You seem to suggest that having a wide nose is an indicator of being black but I can think of lots of people I would consider to be black who don't have wide noses, also people with wide noses who aren't black. You consider some people to have mixed heritage but you aren't sure which category you want to put them in. I am unclear as to whether you will allow these people of mixed heritage to be represented by BLM.

I am trying to illustrate to you how unhelpful your stance about this only being about black people is when you cannot even start to define who black people are. Are you able to understand that at all?

I have dark hair, blue eyes and an 'Irish' face (that's what they told me). I don't know why they thought I was Irish solely based on my face but they were correct.
How strange of them. That's not exclusive to Irish people.
Do you think you look Irish?

@PatricksRum

*Could you explain how that white privilege is expressed then?

In a group of people that you've been told rarely access education past primary school, are repeatedly evicted, currently many have no access to water, face barriers to getting medical care, have lower life expectancy, are abused in the street, are turned away from shops restaurants etc - can you explain where they are more privileged than you? How do you think they benefit?*

Simply because they are white they are not treated the same.

Say rich people are treated better than poor people.

We have 4 people
1 rich white person
1 rich black person
1 poor white person
1 poor black person

The 2 white people are 50% more likely to be accepted into University because they don't have black-sounding names.

The 2 poor people are being abused because they are poor. Both people buy a suit. The white poor person is now viewed as rich. The black poor person is still viewed as black.

Honestly, I don't think I can engage with you further.

You are make figures up and presenting them as facts, (see Oxford figures) now you are just propagating your ridiculous idea of stereotypes - a poor white person buys a suit and is now viewed as rich? Seriously op. Catch yourself on.

You want us to educate ourselves, how about you go away and educate yourself?

I honestly take issue with your interpretation of how white privilege makes up for the racism faced by Travellers but no doubt you are utterly convinced of your righteousness. Much how you told me that my family had never experienced oppression - despite them having been Jews in Poland during the war!

I'm trying to understand where the bias or discrimination occurs.
The colour or their skin.

The figures that Abbcc posted show she is entirely correct

@Devlesko
Being told you have a privilege of any sort is uncomfortable. White privilege even more so as it isn't something you can change, your skin colour.
I do understand it's uncomfortable to accept but it's important you do.
Once it's accepted you can help to address it.
It isn't about feeling guilty. No one should feel guilt because they belong to a racial group. It's about using that privilege to help the underprivileged.
Hope that makes sense.

That one was a made up scenario to explain how they calculate their figures as you asked if it was proportional to the make up of applications received.

And that contributes what to the argument? Shall we all make up statistics then to bolster our argument? This is utterly futile.

You weren't even right with your made up numbers. You said white people were twice as likely to go to Oxford and illustrated that with made up figures that didn't support it whereas other posters are posting the correct figures which are much worse than your made up ones.

Ironically your argument would be stronger if you had actually posted correct figures. Black students are 3.1% in 2019 as quoted above.

lemonsandlimes

I think I understand the point you’re trying to make, but also remember there can be a gap between the race (or mix) you are, and what people perceive you to be.

So if they’re going to be racist to you on the basis of what they perceive you to be, does it make a difference what you actually are?

The problem isn’t how op or other black people define black, it’s how others treat those that they perceive as being black.

And the problem there is clearly with the people doing the perceiving.

Tbh I find the statistics confusing, but maths isn't my strong point. Copied from the fullfacts website:

^
“You are twice as likely to get into @UniofOxford as a white applicant (24%) than a black applicant (12%). Why? 1/4 Oxford colleges did not admit a single black student in a whole year group at least once between 2015-17. 8 colleges less than 1% black. Why?”

David Lammy MP,23 May 2018

“BME students make up 17.9% of all British Oxford undergraduates. That's pretty close to the percentage of BME people among 17-24-year-olds in England and Wales – 18.3%.”

Toby Young,23 May 2018

Both David Lammy and Toby Young are both broadly correct in their claims, yet they are making contrasting points about how accessible the University of Oxford is for black and minority ethnic students.

The exact figures vary depending on which year you look at, whether you’re talking about the overall student population or applicants’ relative chances of being accepted, and also which groups in particular you are talking about.

2017 was the first year (in recent times at least) when Oxford’s UK undergraduate intake had a similar level of black and minority ethnic students to the general population of England and Wales aged 17-24, but black students are still underrepresented.

Black students who apply to Oxford are less likely to be accepted than white students, and in some colleges make up less than 1% of all students from the UK.

All figures in this article refer to applicants for undergraduate courses living in the UK.^

Patricks - so I am now even more confused. You can't define black other than skin colour, except it's not just skin colour as some people you acknowledge are very dark skinned but not black.
Exactly. Which is why I said I can't answer the question because there is no one answer.

You seem to suggest that having a wide nose is an indicator of being black but I can think of lots of people I would consider to be black who don't have wide noses, also people with wide noses who aren't black.
Nope I said it's a black feature.

*You consider some people to have mixed heritage but you aren't sure which category you want to put them in. I am unclear as to whether you will allow these people of mixed heritage to be represented by BLM.
*It's not for me to categorise them. That is for them to do.

I am trying to illustrate to you how unhelpful your stance about this only being about black people is when you cannot even start to define who black people are. Are you able to understand that at all?
It isn't unhelpful. BLM is about black people, why isn't that clear?

@PatricksRum

I have dark hair, blue eyes and an 'Irish' face (that's what they told me). I don't know why they thought I was Irish solely based on my face but they were correct. How strange of them. That's not exclusive to Irish people. Do you think you look Irish?

I don't really know. I do think there can be an Irish face, 'look' or similarity. It's hard to explain. When I lived in London I could occasionally pick out people with Irish heritage based on their face shape, colouring etc. I haven't thought about it in years as I'm living in Ireland now so can't remember what it was about how they looked that made me think (correctly) they had Irish heritage.

But when you experience the same, how are you privileged and where does it stop.
Both Black and white people are privilaged because they haven't experienced racism as Chinese, Jewish, Romany, Irish, Irish traveller.
Is this what will come next?
We will have to beg to differ, having experience racism all my life I address any racism towards anyone, I refuse to be labelled in doing so.