You're white you cannot experience racism 3

[PatricksRum]

And it continues. Thank you for those black people who took the time to share their stories once again.

@Whataloadofshite @BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup @CandyLeBonBon @WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee
Thank you all.

[quote AMemeByAnyOtherName]@Pugdoglife it's a hideous phrase. It's bigoted. [/quote]
I agree, I also think it's racist, I think anything that categorises a whole race as one thing is racist. I've then been accused of being racist for refusing to accept that all white people are trash.

I understand white privilege. I totally accept that historically black people have been treated badly and disadvantaged in so many ways, financially, educationally etc and as a race there are many wide and varied effects of this, which are still very evident today. It's not ok and it needs to change, but I have no idea how we balance out those historical wrongdoings? But I'm not a racist because I don't want to be called trash because some people with my skin colour do abhorrent things.

@lemonsandlimes123

Hearhooves - the problem with your analysis is that it assumes all other things are equal when people are being taken into custody and that everyone detained should be there. The fact that BAME people are more likely to be detained is actually the nub of the matter, we know that there are significant issues with institutional racism in this country and your analysis leaves out this key element. If BAME people were equally likley to be detained in the first place then your argument would hold more water.

Again, it's not my analysis, it is official data.

Secondly, whether they should be there or not is an entirely different question altogether.

I posted the data in relation not ops statement that black people were twice as likely to die in custody than white people. They aren't.

She didn't post asking about why black people are over represented in the prison population or whether black people are more likely to have unsafe convictions or to be arrested without cause. These are all separate questions.

My comment.on the data is no judgement or opinion on anything other than the ops assertion that black.people have twice the chance of dying in custody.

The OP has raised a very serious issue regarding systemic racism towards black people. It exists and it needs to be dealt with. What happened to George Floyd cannot be allowed to happen ever again.

However, considering the serious issue, I don't like the way the OP admits to using generalisations in her posts. It makes the posts sensationalist and actually detracts from the issue at hand. Likewise, posting comments and, when questioned on them, responds with "I wasn't being serious" is, imo, not the way to deal with a serious issue.

Lumping all white people together as racist and then commenting that she doesn't think all white people are racist, when questioned about it - why say it in the first place?

On posts, people can only go by what is written. Many people have questioned the OP on some of her more "sensationalist" comments to be told that's their interpretation of what she said. Surely, if trying to discuss a matter of such importance, no words should be open to interpretation. They should all be clear and factual. I appreciate there is a lot of emotion on this thread but how are people expected to understand points if they are ambiguous? They don't deserve to get shouted down for not knowing what the OP means, if it isn't clearly written.

I was brought up being told that people should be tolerant to everyone. That is not happening, imo, here. On the previous thread, a poster said how she's been spat at and badly treated because of a disability. The OP said it wasn't relevant on this thread. I agree her experience has nothing to do with systemic racism. However, that poster possibly feels even more belittled by that reply. There was no tolerance in that reply. No empathy.

Irish people have faced systemic racism in England. My uncle changed his accent in order to progress. During the troubles in London, I faced violence on many occasions, including from police because I have an Irish name and accent. I know the OP doesn't care about my experiences but that doesn't give her the right to invalidate them. Nobody has the right to invalidate anybody's experience of racism or racial prejudice. Travellers experience racism. They deserve to be heard, along with AME.

Being abrasive to people who are trying to understand doesn't help. Being abrupt doesn't help. Refusing to accept other people's perspectives doesn't help. Trying to bully people off the thread, as the OP did with Dreep, is horrible. What's worse, she tried to encourage others to participate in that bullying. We might not always agree with other people's opinions but that doesn't give us the right to be nasty to them because of it.

I read the previous thread and this one. I want all forms of racism to stop. I get the anger over what happened to George Floyd. I understand BLM and support it. I am bringing my children up to be against racism and to speak out if they see it. However, the OP needs to understand that shouting at white people, refusing to acknowledge other people's experiences, attacking posters who disagree or ask for more information, is divisive and, more, counterproductive.

@PatricksRum

Nah no thanks needed -I’m sick of the bullshit.

I lived in Brixton for 10 years before coming back to Bradford (My home town is Bfd, London’s my second home ) - IN Brixton I lived with Black neighbours, ate at Caribbean restaurants, went to Paks for my toiletries, went to gigs and house parties where I was welcome ... I tried not to impose in places Black culture needed some space to be without the white gaze (wouldn’t go to a hair shop for example, not because I wouldn’t be welcomed, but because definitely not a space I’m needed in, and where my presence would potentially impact on the Black women around me).
Nobody gave me shit in Brixton either. I was not subject to racism. I was not “barred”.
Saw violence perpetrated against Black people by white bodies and white mouths many times on the Tube etc though.

Am not HAVING this bullshit “what about” perspective or this (often white authored) “hierarchy of trauma” behaviour perpetrated around me any more either.

I’m still working on my unconscious biases and will my whole life I expect- I’m a child of the 80s brought up by an ignorant family- the unpacking and relearning will be LONG- I just hope some of the posters on this thread wake up a bit.

And STOP TELLING LIES that perpetuate racial stereotypes and racism.
I’m looking at you @Flaxmeadow

Why is it not racism the other way around?

@Hearhooves

I do see what you're saying, and I do think that the biggest issue to address in the UK is how we can reduce the number of black people who are in prison.

But it is correct in some senses to say that black people are twice as likely to die in prison. Not in every sense, no. But data can be stated in different ways (the last few months make that damned clear).

[quote PatricksRum]PatricksRum
@Hearhoovesthinkzebras**
Let me word it differently. What is your opinion on the oppression of black people and that black people are more than twice as likely to die in custody?
Op, you are misrepresenting again.

Show me the statistics that support your claim. You can't, because you are wrong.

The twice as likely to die is based on working out the percentage of black people who die in custody from the number of black people in society. Then the number of white people who die in custody with the number of white people in society.

But

When you work out the percentages based on the number of black people who die in custody against the number of black people in custody and the same for white people, white people have a 25% greater chance.

I haven't explained it very well but look at the data yourself. It's not meaningful to look at the number of people dying in custody against the number of people who aren't in custody. The people in the general population aren't at risk of dying in custody, by virtue of the fact they aren't in custody.

So, I could work out the chance of getting pregnant. I wouldn't take the whole population of the UK and then calculate percentages from that would I, because I would be including men, children and post menopausal women. To get an accurate percentage chance of pregnancy I need to look at a specific group ie women of childbearing age.

It's the same thing here. Black people bare over represented within the prison population and that is a very important question to ask - why is that?

But it's just inaccurate to say that black people bare twice as likely to die in custody than white people. It simply isn't true.

Over the past ten years 140 white people have died in custody and 13 black people. Against numbers in custody, white people have a 25% increased chance of dying.*

Here

^What do the figures show?

Over the past 10 years, 163 people have died in or following police custody in England and Wales, according to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) - the body responsible for police complaints.

Death in custody is the term for anybody who dies while in the custody of the state - this could include while being detained by a police officer or while being held as a prisoner in a police station.

Of the deaths in the last 10 years:

140 were white
13 were black
10 were from other minority ethnic groups.
When you compare these figures to how much of the population these groups make up (as measured by the 2011 census ), black people are more than twice as likely to die in police custody.

The 2011 census - the most accurate source - showed that 3% of the English population were black (though this proportion may have grown since then). Black people accounted for 8% of deaths in custody.^

Source: www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/52890363[/quote]
How come you didn't post the rest of that same article op? You wouldn't be trying to mislead would you?

Of those arrested, 79% were white and 85% of those who died in custody were white.

Meanwhile, 9% of people arrested were black (which is disproportionally high) and 8% of those who died in custody were black.

So, over the last 10 years, a white individual who has been arrested was about 25% more likely to die in custody than a black individual who had been arrested.

There we are. Lies, damned lies and statistics right?

@BradfordLass

I’m not in Bradford, but in an area of a city that sounds like it has a similar demographic to where you are. I have seen the same. Abuse shouted at Roma people, racist comments etc. My female Asian friends like to meet with others before travelling places, because it feels safer. They have been shouted at on the street.

I’ve heard it said by people that they can’t walk down the Main Street where I live. It disgusts me. The reason they don’t walk down my street is because they are racists.

Also I respectfully disagree- I do think that all white people are to some degree racist.

Again- I say that as a white woman.
It’s an awful fact and the product of 400 years of systemic and institutionally racist colonial mentalities.

It’s the job of white people to fix what we started- we need to do better.

The article you referenced on the BBC has both sets of statistics because both are true

Black people ARE twice as likely to die in custody as any other ethnic group. That is a fact and it is quoted in the article you linked right above your quoted fact.

If you then do a different comparison and examine the figures in relation to numbers of people in custody then yes white people are more likely to die.

I have already explained that this is going to be due to suicides in prison overwhelmingly and has nothing to say to whether black people are more likely to suffer violence from police

But you don't like that argument so you have ignored it

The main thrust of the article you posted is in agreement with OP. And yet you have picked out the only fact that could in any way be read to support your own argument

The government would not have commissioned an official investigation in 2017 if they did not think these figures were a cause of concern.

Patricks - The fact that you are not able to tell us what black is but simply tell us all the things black isn't is interesting.

you said
I'm not sure I can. It's difficult because so much of our history is erased
My grandma is a black woman from the Caribbean.

Unless you are suggesting your Grandma is indigenous to the caribbean which is very unlikely then it would suggest that she was a survivortof the trans atlantic slave trade meaning she came from africa.

It could be that my dna is made up of many places.

That is the same for many many people and would suggest that black isn't the singular entity you seem to think it is.

To look at her she is very clearly black. She has a Caribbean accent. She has black features. She is black

Please define what you mean by black features?

For example, Indians can be very dark but they know they aren't blac
k.

Just out of interest how would you define someone of mixed indian and nigerian parentage?

@Chulainn

Again, with you to an extent. But whether you or I agree with OP and her directing her anger at a whole group and generalising, we should at least be able to understand her anger. In life, we will hear many different voices about many different issues. Understanding doesn't have to be agreement.

To take it further and away from mumsnet, I understand why some people have committed property damage during protests. I don't agree with it and am worried that it will give further fuel to those who want to continue to oppress black people, but I understand that these people are angry and why they choose to do these things.

The reason I am pursuing this line of queries with the OP is that she has repeatedly sought to make it clear that she is only interested in black issues and that is fine but it seems appropriate to point out to her that black people are not some singular homogenous group and in fact may well overlap with other groups and her attempts at exclusivity are only likely to backfire.

WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee

Why aren't you holding op to the same standard you are holding me to?

She selectively posted one section of an article, that supported her assertion, when the next paragrah down was a "however, there's another way of looking at this" and then presented the data that white people bare 25% more likely to die. Why aren't you telling her off for ignoring data that didn't support her argument?

Now you've changed the goal.posts again and want me to report on suicide statistics.

Black- dark brown skin, often from African descent.

Jamaicans for example some are dark skinned and some are lighter brown , are these lighter brown Jamaicans still black ?

Is a person who is half English and half Jamaican black too?

@lemonsandlimes123 it isn't up to you or anyone else to define what a black person is. People define themselves as black. If the society they live in doesn't agree with them they tend to redefine themselves.

It is the same with other labels people put on themselves.

This is why Barack Obama says he's black. And Trevor Noah makes the joke of not being black in South Africa so expecting to be black when he goes to the States, only to have some speak to him in Spanish when he lands at the airport.

I can't post the experiences of my patients because of confidentiality but maybe I can anonymise one. I will say I have witnessed with my own eyes that mentally ill black people are treated differently than mentally ill white or even Asian people and they are treated with suspicion and aggression and it harms them.

An elderly, clearly confused white person causes a disturbance in a bus. I think the most likely response of others would be to try to help that person, call an ambulance etc. I know that would be the case because that happens fairly often.

An elderly, clearly confused Rastafarian man was shouting on a bus and he was arrested by police and strip searched for drugs. It was a number of hours before any medical help was summoned for that man and his distress and the undignified way he was treated brought me to tears.

He and his family were experienced by staff as 'difficult' 'argumentative'. Initially I was offended. Why am I being met with suspicion and aggression when I am only trying to help? Then I realised his expectations are formed from years of racist abuse. He and his family do not expect fair treatment from mental health services or anyone in authority so they react with defensiveness and come across as aggressive. It took them time to trust we would not do the same and in the end we got on well and he explained a lot about his religion and customs that helped me understand him and treat him in a way that was acceptable to him. I learnt a lot from him. He has passed away now. Rest in power N.

BeforeIputon- I think you will find I haven't defined what a black person is! I was simply trying to help the op who has been so very clear that all her posts are about Black people but seems unable to tell us how she defines black people. Good to know that you think it is simply down to a matter of self identification! I can't say I agree with you but you are entitled to your opinion!

@lemonsandlimes123

The reason I am pursuing this line of queries with the OP is that she has repeatedly sought to make it clear that she is only interested in black issues and that is fine but it seems appropriate to point out to her that black people are not some singular homogenous group and in fact may well overlap with other groups and her attempts at exclusivity are only likely to backfire.

That this is going to backfire I completely agree with.

I've seen a lot of disagreement on line particularly against white people who have thrown themselves into the BLM protest but have got it massively wrong.

Examples so far

White protesters at a junction in America, asking drivers going past to show support for BLM. One car didn't acknowledge them and then got caught at the red light. One protestor ran to the car yelling and screaming, attacking the car, taking photos of the registration, videoing the driver and encouraged a baying mob to join in. The driver was a white middle aged woman and looked terrified. All of the protesters were white. All of the comments.on line were from black people condemning what the protesters had done and telling them they weren't representing them.

The white protesters berating the soldiers cleaning graffiti from the statue in London - again many black people annoyed at how they were making the BLM movement look.

Three white women scrubbing graffiti off of the wall of a government building in America. A passer by is demanding to know why they are doing it, whilst filming them to plaster their faces all over the internet. They explain that they have been told to do it. Her reply "good use of your white privilege girls. Check yourselves".

This is just going to turn into riots as both sides, particularly if we see an upswing in Covid infections as a result.

People in America are now threatening the military and the police. Calls to exercise the second amendment and for the military to protect the constitution by not obeying the government. That's all they need now - doomsday preppers charging around America with their automatic weapons.

Where are the leaders, the statesmen? We need trusted, respected people to step up and try and calm this with assurances that people are heard and that change is going to happen.

@qweryuiop I feel the same about the protesters. I think the property damage is, quite frankly, a stupid move, it's fuelling other people to take advantage of the situation and loot etc. I understand that anger is what lead to this. I actually feel angry that those police officers caused all of this in the first place.

Earlier Matt Hancock said on sky news that he urges people to find other ways to campaign for justice instead of senseless protesting. At the time I thought that at the very least, that's what places like this thread are trying to achieve? I hope so.

Irish people have faced systemic racism in England. My uncle changed his accent in order to progress. During the troubles in London, I faced violence on many occasions, including from police because I have an Irish name and accent. I know the OP doesn't care about my experiences but that doesn't give her the right to invalidate them. Nobody has the right to invalidate anybody's experience of racism or racial prejudice. Travellers experience racism. They deserve to be heard, along with AME.

I found this point very interesting, having been told that white people absolutely categorically cannot experience racism.
Back in the days where pubs had signs "no blacks, no Irish" was it only racist against black people? I would say it's racist and unacceptable against both.
Irish travellers would be categorised as"white other" but are massively disadvantaged, in terms of medical care, life expectancy, numbers in prison and educational outcomes. Is that not racism?

Irish travellers would be categorised as"white other" but are massively disadvantaged, in terms of medical care, life expectancy, numbers in prison and educational outcomes. Is that not racism?

Clearly it is but not according to op. It's white privilege according to her.

It is pretty simple honestly
If other people say you are black you are black and you are going to experience racism
The OPs whole point is you can hardly 'identity out' of that. You can't say no thanks I'd rather not be black

A person with mixed heritage if they have one black and one white parent most people are going to perceive them as black.

Other people are going to define for you if you are black enough to receive racist abuse. They will apply their stereotypes to you on sight

If you look more ambiguous you may escape some of the worst of it and you may be able to choose to avoid it if you identify with the white side of your identity but you don't have to. You may have a bit more choice

The darker your skin the worse racism against you is going to be

[quote qweryuiop]@Chulainn

Again, with you to an extent. But whether you or I agree with OP and her directing her anger at a whole group and generalising, we should at least be able to understand her anger. In life, we will hear many different voices about many different issues. Understanding doesn't have to be agreement.

To take it further and away from mumsnet, I understand why some people have committed property damage during protests. I don't agree with it and am worried that it will give further fuel to those who want to continue to oppress black people, but I understand that these people are angry and why they choose to do these things.[/quote]
I do understand her anger. However, I don't understand her intolerance. She has been given examples of white people experiencing racism. Her bar seems set at 'they don't look Irish, Welsh, Roma, traveller etc' so don't experience racism. When I lived in London I was considered Irish, even if I hadn't spoken. I, apparently, 'look' Irish. The same can apply to Travellers.

Another poster said something along the lines that white people don't live with the fear of a petrol bomb being thrown through their letterbox. That happened in Northern Ireland during the troubles. It was sectarian. However, white people lived with daily terror during those times. It has nothing to do with the racism experienced by B or AME, Travellers etc but it can't be dismissed as never happening because it doesn't fit a narrative that only black people experience these atrocities.

I understand the struggles black people have suffered from. The systemic racism is abhorrent. The daily feeling of being judged, being watched, not being good enough, not being accepted - it's sickening. However, sweeping statements or generalisations dilute the horror of the reality as people instinctively point out the errors or inconsistencies.

@WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee That's really awful, but sadly I'm not surprised. Mental illness is bad enough to cope with without being strip searched for drugs because of the colour of his skin.

My DB has serious MH issues and became very distressed when being questioned by police because of his connection with an Irish man with links to the IRA in the 1990s. With the added suspicion of the motives of the police black people will have, your patient must have been so distressed. I'm glad you were able to help him.