Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

You're white you cannot experience racism 3

1000 replies

PatricksRum · 06/06/2020 12:28

And it continues. Thank you for those black people who took the time to share their stories once again.

@Whataloadofshite @BeforeIPutOnMyMakeup @CandyLeBonBon @WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee
Thank you all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
PatricksRum · 07/06/2020 12:59

Also given that it seems to have become the very nub of the discussion, maybe the OP could define EXACTLY what she means by black.
I'm really confused by this. What is your question?

OP posts:
AMemeByAnyOtherName · 07/06/2020 12:59

@Wizadorawobble I agree, I am not as au fait with the issues of travellers and the Roma as I am with the experiences I have faced as a black minority. I do genuinely think you should create a thread about it. And I promise from the bottom of my heart that I will not visit your thread to talk about the plights of black people.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 07/06/2020 13:00

You are twice as likely to go to Oxford University if you are white than if you are black.

Maybe. If you are white middle class who went to public school.

The post you responded to said that white working class boys are at the bottom of the education hierarchy - which they are.

You responded with "you're twice as likely to go to Oxford if you are white". What, white working class boys are twice as likely to go to Oxford than black students are they? Because that's what you are implying.

lemonsandlimes123 · 07/06/2020 13:00

chocnut - i don't think you will find a single person who disagrees with you

lemonsandlimes123 · 07/06/2020 13:01

Patricks - please define what you mean by black people. I cannot make it any clearer than that.

LumaLou · 07/06/2020 13:03

OP, I’ve been following these threads but oy commenting now. This is going to be a long post!

It’s a fallacy that only black people experience racism. I think this is largely what has lead to debate, rather than discussion ( in addition to the racist/ ethnocentric views of some posters, which should rightly be challenged)

At the same time I‘ve been listening to the points you made. It’s a fact that the majority of white people don’t experience institutional or systemic racism to the same extent as black people.

In addition, for the vast majority of white people, their lives are not at risk in the hands of the police, or from other white communities. Any one who thinks this is the same as being in receipt of an occasional racist slur is deluded.

I think it’s fair to say that black people are the most oppressed group in society today, but it’s doesn’t mean that they are the only group to have experienced racism.

Jewish people for example. The horrors that have happened are well known.

@AMemeByAnyOtherName

The history of the British in Ireland is a long and troubled one - There is a reason that a civil rights protest in Northern Ireland has come to be known as Bloody Sunday. British troops opened fire on unarmed civilians. There has been great progress made though. Restorative justice etc. The police force have rebranded too.

I would argue that Roma people have had it worse. Historically they have been one of the most persecuted groups ever. Right now, there are Roma people in the UK who are subject to horrible acts of race hate. It’s not as well known or reported, because the community’s voice is not listened too.

But it’s not a competition, and the racism that different groups face will be unique due to personal history. For many groups progress has been made. It’s worth remembering that empowerment of one group in society empowers everyone. The Irish civil rights movement was in part inspired by the American Civil rights movement of the 1960s.

Things have changed dramatically in Northern Ireland in the last 50 years, in no part due to the peace process, but black people in America are still fighting for Civil Liberties and their lives. So right now, it’s important for everyone to stand up and fight together, for Black People.

No one person can tell everyone to follow their own personal belief and interpretation of the terms ‘racism’ and ‘racial prejudice’.

To be truly pedantic about terminology, the term racism in itself is problematic, as there are no ‘races’ of people.

We are all homo sapians and we need to defend each other’s rights, not argue about it.

PatricksRum · 07/06/2020 13:04

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
Let me word it differently. What is your opinion on the oppression of black people and that black people are more than twice as likely to die in custody?

OP posts:
qweryuiop · 07/06/2020 13:04

[quote AMemeByAnyOtherName]**@Wizadorawobble I agree, I am not as au fait with the issues of travellers and the Roma as I am with the experiences I have faced as a black minority. I do genuinely think you should create a thread about it. And I promise from the bottom of my heart that I will not visit your thread to talk about the plights of black people. [/quote]
I know I've agreed with you on most things you've said and I know I have learnt from you, but I do want to call you on this.

If @Wizadorawobble started a thread titled "You are not Roma, you have not experienced racism," this would surely still get the same reaction (rightly).

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 07/06/2020 13:05

[quote PatricksRum]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
I'll ask again, how can you spot a gypsy by their face alone?[/quote]
Speak to wizadora. She posted detailing terrible persecution and you just ignored it.

Ask her how the persecutors know who to slaughter

packetandtripe · 07/06/2020 13:05

Also given that it seems to have become the very nub of the discussion, maybe the OP could define EXACTLY what she means by black.
I'm really confused by this. What is your question?

ummm, ahhh, kind of an easy read, we'll give you 24 hours to answer, meanwhile, I have to go a clean my toenails. grow up.

packetandtripe · 07/06/2020 13:07

Let me word it differently. What is your opinion on the oppression of black people and that black people are more than twice as likely to die in custody?

again grow up, make statements, don't answer people with questions. This forum should e a have a signup age?

PatricksRum · 07/06/2020 13:07

*That's right. This fight is only about black people.

Exactly. So why say you meant only this thread?*
I didn't. I've said both.
This fight is about black lives.
This thread is about black lives.
This is our moment.
*
I am not joining a fight that is for only one group.*
Why not? So you actively disapprove of the BLM movement?

Do you have no comment on the post about Roma people being slaughtered right now? Not even an acknowledgement of what that poster said?
I don't wish to derail the thread further so nope.

OP posts:
WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee · 07/06/2020 13:08

But I think OP is allowed to post in whatever style she likes just like anyone else is

She uses shorthand forms of her argument a lot. From contributing to this thread I 100% understand why. I've posted my same carefully reasoned arguments many times over and it takes time and energy to keep on doing so.
OP is tired of keeping doing that and asks we take some responsibility for educating ourselves. I agree with her.

For me her sketched out arguments actually prompted me to do as she asks and go look stuff up. My thoughts were 'this woman is angry and suffering. I don't completely understand or agree with what she's saying but let me hear her and try to understand'

And I did
And I'm glad I did

Or you can just post a knee jerk response picking over her tone or quoting abilities

qweryuiop · 07/06/2020 13:08

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I've never considered it before, but it's actually a false dichotomy we're setting up there. We don't collect data for "black working class boys," which would be what we would have to compare with data for "white working class boys."

With the data we do collect, we would need compare "white boys" with "black boys."

PatricksRum · 07/06/2020 13:08

@AMemeByAnyOtherName I'm sorry. I understand your frustration thoroughly.
I said toward the end of thread 2 that I am highly suspicious of zebras motive and her inability to make ond post without derailing it.

OP posts:
Wizadorawobble · 07/06/2020 13:09

Do you have no comment on the post about Roma people being slaughtered right now? Not even an acknowledgement of what that poster said?

It not gone unnoticed by me that the OP has not once acknowledged me, the only Traveller posting on these threads, even though she's making comments about us.

AvranaKernsBestSpider · 07/06/2020 13:09

There’s a handful of posters on this thread who keep coming back just to “attack” the op.

Some of those posters have said they do plenty in their everyday life to tackle racism and be aware of their privilege, yet take umbrage at this thread because op has said this is about BLM not BAME LM.

If you want to support all BAME people, go ahead and do it. Other black posters on this thread have said they too believe in supporting all BAME lives.

Op believes right now that “black lives matter” is a message that needs to be first and foremost at this point in time.

If you don’t agree, why is it impossible to just say “well, I would prefer to support all BAME people. That’s what I’ll do.”

Why are you not confident in that? Why has the op’s opinion thrown you so much? Why would you keep coming back and making hundreds of posts saying “but why not BAME?” “But travellers!”

Op is one person on the internet with a very real and valid point which many people are supporting. If you want to support the cause in your own, slightly different way, do it.

As Ygritte (I think?) said above “it’s easy to agree to disagree”.

There are so many people on this thread who have given such good insights into why BLM is important and people sharing how they’ve learned from this thread.

Posting to say you disagree? Fine. Debate is healthy. Countless, repetitive posts saying you disagree without adding anything constructive however, takes so much away from your argument and from the point of the thread.

worzelsnurzel123 · 07/06/2020 13:10

@lemonsandlimes123

wokeup - the reason people aren't listening to the OP's argument is that she isn't putting forward an argument. Many posters yourself included have put forward actual structured arguments and information and in the main people have engaged with these. The OP on the other hand has a tendency to make broad sweeping statements, contradicts herself is unclear in her meaning and has a tendency to misunderstand, deliberately or otherwise, what people are posting. As i have said before the conflict with the OP has mainly come from her posting style and she also has difficulties with social communication which may well contribute to this.
Totally agree with this. I’ve listened carefully to what posters have said. So many especially *@WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee have articulated the issues faced so well and I have taken on board the content. It’s the OPs style and communication that is the barrier. It’s such a shame as this could have been a great opportunity. OP just isn’t able to express points effectively, contradicts herself and is extremely rude . If @WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee or @Dreep* had started this thread it would have been so much more positive. It’s all in the delivery.
PatricksRum · 07/06/2020 13:10

*I am white and have experienced prejudice towards me from black people.

BUT*

I recognise that this is not the same as the racism experienced by my black husband. It is not equivalent*

It is not the same as watching your black heavily pregnant mother beaten by police for refusing to get up off a bus seat for a white passenger.

It is not the same as having faeces and petrol bombs through your door as a child.

It is not the same as being told you are stupid and will never amount to nothing by teachers.

It is not the same as being chased home from school everyday and beaten up because of the colour of your skin.

It is not the same as being stopped and strip searched in the back of a police van as a young child for walking to the shop.

It is not the same as being called aggressive for just speaking back against injustice.

It is not the same as having bananas thrown at you or monkey noises made at you walking down the street.

It is not the same as not being refused entry to a venue based on the colour of your skin (when all your white friends who are less well dressed are allowed in).

It is not the same as being called a black bastard for challenging a person who has nearly run you and your child over due to their dangerous driving.

It is not the same as being arrested by the Police for being beaten up by a group of white people.

It is not the same as being arrested by the Police for calling them when someone has run into the back of your car.

It is not the same as being arrested by Police for calling them when a group of white people on drugs (found on them by police) have attacked you on your own street.

It is not the same as being stopped and searched by Police on the school run with 3 children under 4 because you fit the profile for a burglary (oh you mean black and male, must be him then with the double buggy and the child in school uniform).

It is not the same.

These experiences were all in the UK.

Black lives matter. We should be listening.

I hear you OP.

Enough of the what about.*

Beautifully written. Thanks for your post.
I hope those who aren't black and keep commenting whataboutery read and take in your post.

OP posts:
packetandtripe · 07/06/2020 13:11

You are twice as likely to go to Oxford University if you are white than if you are black mmmm....

let's not obfuscate the fact that this is Great Britain where 80 per cent of the population are white; so those odds actually work in 'your favour'. again what age are you?

PatricksRum · 07/06/2020 13:13

*You are twice as likely to go to Oxford University if you are white than if you are black.

Maybe. If you are white middle class who went to public school.*
If you are black middle class and went to public school you are still 50% less likely to go to Oxford University than you're white classmate.
Let that sink in.*

The post you responded to said that white working class boys are at the bottom of the education hierarchy - which they are.

You responded with "you're twice as likely to go to Oxford if you are white". What, white working class boys are twice as likely to go to Oxford than black students are they? Because that's what you are implying.*
On a whole, yes.
White people, working class, middle class, public school, private school, on a whole are still more likely to go to OU than the black equivalent.

OP posts:
lemonsandlimes123 · 07/06/2020 13:13

qweryuiop - we do actually collect that data! We also break the data down into much smaller groups i.e class groups, white british, white irish, white other, asian - indian, asian- bangladeshi etc etc

And as expected white people are not a homogenous group neither are black people or asian people. Within all of these groups there are multiple factors impacting on educational achievement.

qweryuiop · 07/06/2020 13:14

@packetandtripe

You are twice as likely to go to Oxford University if you are white than if you are black mmmm....

let's not obfuscate the fact that this is Great Britain where 80 per cent of the population are white; so those odds actually work in 'your favour'. again what age are you?

You've not understood this statistic. Black people are 3% of the population, but less than 1% of the makeup of Oxford.

You're also targeting OP and you should with unpleasant comments.

PatricksRum · 07/06/2020 13:14

Patricks - please define what you mean by black people. I cannot make it any clearer than that.
I have no idea what you mean.
Black people = black people.
I don't understand.
Maybe someone can help me understand this question?

OP posts:
lemonsandlimes123 · 07/06/2020 13:15

patricks - you don't appear to have answered my very straightforward question. I will presume that you are either unwilling or unable to.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.