You're white you haven't experienced racism 2 *title amended by MNHQ at OP's request*

[PatricksRum]

I started a thread in the early hours.

I fell asleep
I've checked the thread and it's full.

Whilst the thread sadly proves my OP, there were a lot of great posts and understanding by some MNers.

I think this discussion is so important and I'd like to continue.

These photos sum up the ridiculous responses.

Do not tell me I am doing my oppressed race a disservice
Your racial prejudice faced as a white person do not trump the daily racism and fear for our lives

Finally, if your response to this is to explain your tiny grievances of racial prejudices you've faced then you are wholly part of the problem.

The racist behaviours and thoughts by your people is the problem. It is your duty to understand and tackle it. I repeat, it is not the duty of black people to educate you.

[quote Jangirl2018]@Abbccc

You're saying that it's white people's duty to understand and do aomething about racism towards black people. But you don't think black people should have to help white people learn about black issues. I can't see how the two go together. Surely it would he better to work together to get it right?

Why should black people have to help? Who created the myth of white supremacy and perpetrated the brutal and savage treatment of those who are not white? Who set up structures and systems that ensure you are likely to have to work twice as hard just to survive. Don’t ask the people who didn’t create the problem to deconstruct it, that seems like a slap in the face.[/quote]
This. Pleading ignorance right now when there is a wealth of information on the internet is pathetic.

What happened to that man was horrifying beyond comprehension, I cried with devastation and rage when I watched the video and haven't been able to shake what I saw. I spoke to my children at length about it and we've returned to the discussion quite a few times since. My mum was bitching about the subsequent riots with no mention of George the other day and I replied "bullies don't stop till you make them stop, and the same goes for racist regimes, talking doesn't always work and sometimes you have to rise up and fight back". This is my experience in my personal life and working life. This is not to defend the rioting in anyway, which has been taken over and is no longer focussed on the initial pain and message, but I certainly understand why and how it started. It will certainly be remembered and I hope will prove be a turning point and future preventative until such a time as real change occurs. However the thread was not about him was it? Why are you asking me about him? In order to make me express overt racism? Do one. You won't get that from me

Quote examples of my toxicity won't you? And why they are toxic if you don't mind. Thanks.

OP. I haven't said anything about my experiences. I've just commented on how it seems to me that you've turned an issue that everyone is united on - into an aggressive, divisive battle on this thread. It's like you're itching for a fight when nobody here disagrees with the horror of what happened.

the only thing poisonous about this thread is the attitudes of people like

😴

OP; do you think you have achieved what you wanted with this thread?

Do you think anyone has listened, and learned?

Do you think they will use their white privilege to change anything?

Because it's white people that are killing black people!!!!!!

George Floyd was killed by a white man, yes and every racially motivated murder is disgusting. Every incidence of police brutality disgusts me, especially when it is racially motivated or aggravated.

There was a white girl killed by a black man in a park near me - I would never say that means black people are killing white people nor, as you said, "your race has killed another one of our race".

@YgritteSnow You know the interesting thing.
On this thread and the other not once have I caller anyone a racist yet white people on both threads have called me a racist.

The only person I've seen call people thick racist white people is you.

Not once have I personally attacked anyone, call anyone a name. Yet It would be understandable if I did.

OP. I haven't said anything about my experiences. I've just commented on how it seems to me that you've turned an issue that everyone is united on - into an aggressive, divisive battle on this thread. It's like you're itching for a fight when nobody here disagrees with the horror of what happened.

You've contradicted yourself. Commenting on your experience and understanding of my words and this thread is just that, your experience.
You've spoken about yourself, your feelings, how I'm attacking you Bla Bla. You've done exactly that.

OP; do you think you have achieved what you wanted with this thread?
I said if just one person listened. If just one person thought I would have achieved something so yes.

Do you think anyone has listened, and learned?
Yes.

This is a post from @Lilly11a

You know what I read this and my first reaction is :

You are not giving me a chance , if I don't do anything but agree with you , you say I'm wrong but won't explain why .

You are so hostile and I haven't done anything, why are you so angry with someone you have never spoken to.

Then I think some more and I guess this is how you feel all the time in the UK and that's terrible .

It's not my experience and it's not crossed my mind that everyone is not treated equally because I don't see it happening.

Is this somewhere close or am I still not there?

I'm not looking to offend .
I just think my perception is everyone is treated the same way as me because that is what I see and evidently that is not true from this thread.

Do you think they will use their white privilege to change anything?
Who's they? You mean people on this thread or people in general?
The answer is the same either way. I think at least one person will.

I've not called you a racist. I don't think you are. I do very much question what you are trying to get out of this thread though because there's been no clear explanation, still yet. How does this move forward? You shame posters and express head shaking amazement at any comment you don't like yet won't explain. It's not your job to educate. Fine. So what did you want from this thread? What were you hoping for? If you just wanted to rant you could have said and I would have respectfully kept away but you made an assertion that people challenged and tried to discuss then you and others shamed them when they did. I want to understand yet you ridicule those that say this. Do you see that for many it's like banging up against a brick wall as they try to get where you're coming from? How can we ever get it if it isn't our lived experience? Tell us what you need!

Well that's a bit rich when you're expecting white people to flagellate themselves over slavery.

No, that's not what is being asked of everyone, not personal flagellation but for white people (as I am myself!) to acknowledge that former societal norms like slavery have contributed to today's systemic racism which has in turn has benefited white people rather than black people or other minority races.

If a man said to a womens rights activist "why do you want me to flagellate myself because other men are the perpetrators of raping women and rape within marriage used to be allowed which isn't my fault" you would articulate clearly that the fact he doesn't does not change the fact that no women should be raped and the perpetrators are male.

If a man replied to a thread regarding the laws around rape saying "I've never raped anyone so you shouldn't say men are rapists" most women would think this was an unnecessary and selfish serving response.

So just as the patriarchy is factually real, so too is racism - from daily microaggregions and to implicit bias right through to racial slurs.

I don't get why that is hard to understand. Whataboutery achieves nothing.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

There was a white girl killed by a black man in a park near me - I would never say that means black people are killing white people nor, as you said, "your race has killed another one of our race"

Sorry this comparison doesn’t really work. White people have a history of killing black people because of the colour of their skin. That’s a fact.

George Floyd was killed by a white man, yes and every racially motivated murder is disgusting. Every incidence of police brutality disgusts me, especially when it is racially motivated or aggravated.
Excellent. Fight it.*

There was a white girl killed by a black man in a park near me - I would never say that means black people are killing white people nor, as you said, "your race has killed another one of our race".*
Of course you wouldn't. Because it wasn't racially motivated nor is it a common occurrence. You don't have a history of your race being oppressed so why would you say that?

White people do not in any way, shape, or form, experience racism.

We may experience prejudice, but that is not the same as racism. It is entirely reasonable that people of colour, especially Black people, look at us with fear and apprehension etc, because many of us have been fatally dangerous to them since forever.

Racism isn't simply discrimination based on the colour of skin, there is structural racism, social racism, scientific racism, and much more. Most white folks don't even consider this, and most of us have grown up benefitting from the systems that were built to favour us, and continue to do so, but we don't notice it because we are not discriminated against in those ways.

Aamer Rahman does stand up about racial issues and it is brilliant:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_mRaIHb-M

Assuming the link works because it's very hit and miss with this site.

White folks: do the work, use a search engine, read as much as you can, listen to non white voices, learn some history. David Olusoga has written a book (any many others) called Black and British, A Forgotten History, which everyone should take the time to read. People seem to have forgotten what the British empire did to BAME people, and think that things are not that bad. It's not true - racism is very much still here and is deadly for many. Rather than demand education or shriek about reverse racism, educate yourselves.

Reading "Why I'm No Longer Talking To White People About Race" by Reni Eddo-Lodge, is another good piece of educational material.

OP, thank you for this thread, and the first one too.

[quote PatricksRum]@YgritteSnow You know the interesting thing.
On this thread and the other not once have I caller anyone a racist yet white people on both threads have called me a racist.

The only person I've seen call people thick racist white people is you.

Not once have I personally attacked anyone, call anyone a name. Yet It would be understandable if I did.[/quote]
You've lumped all white people together, you've referred to a murderer who happened to be white "ours", you've said white people are killing black.people - which may well be true, people.of all races are killing.

How many people on here have referred to black people as "yours" or held you responsible for anything done by another black person?

I'd love to change the political system.in this country. I'd love all politicians to be far more diverse and to represent the communities that they come from, I'd love for the BAME politicians that we do have tondo much more to dismantle racism in this country. I feel as utterly powerless as a wet paper bag to achieve that though. I will challenge racism wherever and whenever I witness it, as I always have done.

@backseatcookers I've been trying to write a post, but you've articulated it so perfectly I can't add much.

Maybe the people feeling attacked and defensive could have a read of this. The book is brilliant, this is an article about it, it covers the main points.

www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-sociologist-examines-the-white-fragility-that-prevents-white-americans-from-confronting-racism

How can anyone not know about the racism that is experienced by black people every day, every single moment of their lives by virtue of being born into a racist society? Serious question. If you read, think, watch films, read newspapers, etc. how can this have evaded you?

Are there seriously people who suddenly think they must read about this for the first time?

I've not called you a racist. don't think you are.
Didn't say you had

I do very much question what you are trying to get out of this thread though because there's been no clear explanation, still yet.
I've said many a time, read my OP. Read my comments. But I don't care if you are questioning my aim.

How does this move forward? You shame posters and express head shaking amazement at any comment you don't like yet won't explain. It's not your job to educate. Fine. So what did you want from this thread?
Repeating yourself. I've answered already.
What were you hoping for? If you just wanted to rant you could have said and I would have respectfully kept away but you made an assertion that people challenged and tried to discuss then you and others shamed them when they did.
I want to understand yet you ridicule those that say this.
When have I ridiculed any poster that said they want to understand? I've thanked them in fact.

Do you see that for many it's like banging up against a brick wall as they try to get where you're coming from?
No. And it doesn't matter either. This isn't about them.

How can we ever get it if it isn't our lived experience? Tell us what you need!
You can read. If you look on my previous thread I've answered what we need. On this thread many people have posted books, films, videos, documentaries, websites to read which answers this.

One good thing that the Britieh Empire did do was make sati illegal.

@PatricksRum

I’m here & listening.

I think people find the idea of ‘learning what you can do better’ uncomfortable which is good. We’re meant to be uncomfortable when learning hence how we learn.

Now is not the time to compare experiences, we all have awful experiences in life specially being Women that’s a given. We can’t sit here and scream and shout about different topics, When we’re trying to focus on one. I’m sure someone/s have given examples. But this thread is pure example of ‘What aboutery’ e.g Violence against Women & Girls is a pandemic ‘ Well what about men?!’ Granted a very important issue but we’re talking about Women & Girls.

And this is what this thread has become a whole lot of ‘Well what aboutery’ Were discussing Black Lives that is the topic. The message is clear here, you’re skin colour doesn’t add to your problems or your issues in life. I get it @PatricksRum I may not be articulate When I write but I read and I practice and I have difficult conversations.

I do agree that Black people should educate, not as a responsibly but as a there are people who are willing to learn and listen to you. I am one of those, I may not get everything right but by all means put me out of my comfort zone to enable me to do better.

Sod the ‘What Aboutery’.

@Whataloadofshite
Appropriate username.
Thank you. Great post!

Because it's white people that are killing black people!!!!!!

Do black people not also not kill white people? Black on white crime also exists. But let me guess because it’s ‘your’ people and ‘your’ fight that fact is completely irrelevant isn’t it? Don’t start bashing white people then expect support and to be listened to because you won’t get it.

Do you understand that you being able to step on a plane Is a privilege of your race?
You being able to step in a country without being shot at is a privilege of your race?
You even being able to choose whether to travel to the ME is a privilege of your race. We aren't able to live where we're from. Your ancestors pulled us and dumped us here. I wouldn't be able to safely travel to the US. You would.

A complete exaggeration! Like you’ll step off a plane in the US or any country and instantly be shot at because of the colour of your skin! What type of BS has got into your brain? We all agree that racism exists and is a problem but to the extent you can never travel because you’ll be shot at because you are black? Its just ridiculous thinking.

On social media I've seen so many people saying "I don't see colour" and they may may mean well but that phrase is a case study in privilege.

That doesn't mean that some people think that phrase makes someone racist or horrible, it means that the phrase shows the privilege they have to not have to spot racism.

So people who say that really believe nobody of colour experiences racism? If yes, they are wrong. If no, what is the purpose saying that phrase in response to people who flag the fact systemic racism is real and a very current issue? What does that phrase really say about the person who says it?

Again it's like a man saying well I've worked in the city for 20 years and I've never seen any sexist behaviour...

Of course you haven't, you are a man!

The same principles apply.