You're white you haven't experienced racism 2 *title amended by MNHQ at OP's request*

[PatricksRum]

I started a thread in the early hours.

I fell asleep
I've checked the thread and it's full.

Whilst the thread sadly proves my OP, there were a lot of great posts and understanding by some MNers.

I think this discussion is so important and I'd like to continue.

These photos sum up the ridiculous responses.

Do not tell me I am doing my oppressed race a disservice
Your racial prejudice faced as a white person do not trump the daily racism and fear for our lives

Finally, if your response to this is to explain your tiny grievances of racial prejudices you've faced then you are wholly part of the problem.

The racist behaviours and thoughts by your people is the problem. It is your duty to understand and tackle it. I repeat, it is not the duty of black people to educate you.

Should we not be boycotting the US? That is what used to happen with South Africa.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I understand that black people have been fighting for this for hundreds of years. But not the same people, and not with people that they are now expecting to step up and help.
What is the point of you saying this? Can you please explain what your final meaning is here?

I could use the same argument to justify me not advocating for myself and other people with disabilities in the workplace. I could argue that for hundreds of years disabled people have been abused, marginalised, tortured and so I'm not going to explain or educate anyone, everyone that needs to make adjustments to accommodate me must go and find it out and educate themselves. How far do you think that will get us?
Could you go for a few posts without talking about yourself and centring yourself? You have seen numerous posts of mine. Have you heard me mention my experiences at all? I am discriminated against frequently but I'm not talking about it, because this conversation is not about me. It is not about you either.

Op, and others don't want a conversation about this and that's completely their prerogative.
OP and others have continuously engaged with you. What exactly are you wanting a conversation about?

They can't really complain though when changes are implemented that don't fully meet their needs or don't represent them. Hopefully other representatives will be more willing to engage with politicians and leaders.
Black people are engaging with politicians and leaders. Many are politicians and leaders themselves. What is this argument about?

@Stripesgalore
This could be an option (& many world leaders are speaking out about US tactics) however we need to look at systemic racism in the UK. Why are BAME people 15% of UK population but only 10% of MPs & 6% of FTSE 100 CEOs?

NotNowPlzz

Can you please not @ me? I am here on the thread, I don't need to be whistled to your side.

All of those points you've questioned me on were points put to me by another poster - I was answering them.

If you don't want me to answer the questions maybe tell other posters not to ask them?

My only point in talking about my disability is in explaining that sometimes it is useful for the person who is directly affected, or who needs the help, to describe what it actually is that they need. I can only speak from my experience and I was trying to use that as an example.

My employer had no clue about my disability nor what adjustments I needed. I could have said " it's not up to me to educate you. Go and read about yourself" which they might have done, with varying degrees of success depending on where they got information from and then implemented what they thought would help me

Or

I could have done what I did. Provided them with relevant information and then described what would help me, from a position of expertise.

That's all that my point was. An illustration.

I get it. You don't want to discuss it. You expect us to have the answers and to know exactly what to do. Ok.

@NotNowPlzz I get what you're saying. It was me who mentioned BAME anger, because I was thinking of all POC who have experienced racism in this country. I apologise for using the wrong word there, I realise that this week is about Black anger in particular and rightly so. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Yankee, there were massive race problems in the U.K. when we boycotted South Africa.

Why can’t we boycott the US and fight against racism in the U.K.?

A boycott would have a huge impact - Amazon, Apple, Microsoft...?

I’ve googled. I’ve read. I still don’t understand. I’ve posted support about BLM on social media and then deleted the post because apparently I don’t have the right to comment and then been told by someone else I was condoning violence for commenting.

I’ve also:

1. Written to my MP asking how they are working to improve the police response to black people
2. Chatted to my (non white) kid about race and ensure she has lots of racially diverse toys etc
3. Donated some money
4. Campaigned for a better MP at the last election
5. Permanently split from family that are racist.

Going forward I will:

1. call out racism when I see it (as one of the only white people in my workplace this is unlikely to happen but it it does I will act) and if I see any socially I will again do so. As out friends are chosen to be decent people I don’t see much of this. With my family of birth there have been some incidents and I have named them and taken action.
2. Continue to annoy my mp on the topic and vote for a better one next time

I can’t do any other stuff on these lists. I don’t have much time for reading or watching movies or Netflix at the moment. I don’t really know what an influencer is and I’m not on Instagram. I’m not involved in hiring and my profession is massively ethically diverse to the point that as a white person I’m in the minority.

I have worked hard to question my reliance on western standards of beauty but that always ends me in trouble for cultural appropriation and a minefield about head shaving and ear piercings for toddlers, that wasn’t good for me emotionally so I’ve dropped that a bit. I do ask myself whenever I disagree with people from another race if my reaction is due to racism or just a different point of view.

Im doing everything I feel I can. I can’t go out and protest as I’ve got covid and a toddler and so I don’t think other people want that. I get that I’ve got white privalage and we live in a weird inclusive bubble. I still sobbed today when my kid asked for a “skin colour” crayon - meaning the pink/peach one and wouldn’t accept that the brown one (her skin colour) was also skin coloued, so it’s clearly not enough.

However I don’t know what else I can do. I can’t ask anyone though because that’s also wrong. So I continue to feel helpless and sad about my daughters future and totally confused about what I do....

@Dreep

So no tone policing? Yet you are policing Osirus? We are all entitled to a say.

And white feelz? Heard it all.

Yeah, fragile precious white feelz. 🙄

And I’ve tried to engage in threads on here to try and see how I can do more but so far I’ve been called racist because my grammar wasn’t good enough and a poster misunderstood me and wouldn’t accept an apology (Im neurodiverse and dyslexic so written English isn’t my strong point)

Have any of the posters on this thread who seem so determined to prove the OP wrong actually read any of the articles linked to in this thread, specifically the one where the author of white fragility is interviewed and the blog post by the author of why I'm no longer talking to white people about racism. Have any of you taken the time to read them and actually digest them? I have, and I get it, I get what the OP is saying. I suggest you go and read it too, then return to the thread.

Nonotthatdr I think your list of what you’re doing sounds great for you and your daughter I think having a child who isn’t white (when you’re white) opens your eyes up to a lot of things you wouldn’t have noticed and that can be a real strength.

White Fragility article amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/16/white-fragility-racism-interview-robin-diangel

Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race article
renieddolodge.co.uk/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race/

I want to say thank you for this thread and the previous one

I have found it very thought provoking and I have gone away and tried to educate myself. I have ordered a book on White Fragility and read an article. I think I am definitely guilty.

I previously used to think I am OK because I have a fair few BAME friends and 'they are just my friends, I treat them no differently' It's taken this thread to make me realise that actually by treating them no differently I did not acknowledge that they were starting at a disadvantage to me.

I realised I have never had a conversation about race or racism with one of my best friends who I've been close to for over 15years through various life events. We've talked about relationships, kids, jobs, parents being ill and dying. All the time I never acknowledged that racism would have affected her in any of that and she never raised it either. I guess I felt it was impolite to talk about my friend's race or skin colour.

Only a few days ago were chatting in a group on zoom where she was the only black person and said it had been a tough week for her because of 'what's been in the news'. No-one said anything. I think no-one knew what to say. I've just now texted and apologised to her that I didn't acknowledge her pain this week and in the past and I think she was pleased (unless she was being polite).

So anyway thank you
You got through to me at least

One of the things thats resonated with me (I’ve read Eddo-Lodge’s book) was the sheer exhaustion that black women must feel and how unfair that is and as a fellow female this is an area where I think we can speak up and try to improve our empathy? I’m a bit shit at empathy-I’m blunt and not politically correct but I am trying.

I’ve noticed it in feminism FB groups. White women pick the bones out of some minor shit “I got called a name wah sexism wail oh poor you etc” whilst having no time for actual serious stuff happening to black women when that’s brought up..I also notice that any emotion shown by a black woman is “aggressive”. To my shame I never used to see it but I do now and once you see it you cannot unsee it.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
Let's look at it like this.
Let's say disabled as in wheelchair user.

There's a work place. It's office-based work.
The offices are in a high storey building.
This particular office is on the 20th floor.
The only way to access it is via a staircase.
The staircase comprises of circa 500 steps.
50% of the workforce are disabled.
They turn up to work and are met by their boss, they say, "I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss says, "that's a shame. Go home. Try again tomorrow."
The next day, "I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss repeats, "that's a shame. Go home. Try again tomorrow"
Being disabled these employees know that no other workplace will hire then because they are disabled so every day they must continue to attend work and try to access the office.
Years go by and a new boss is appointed.
They turn up, "I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss says, "not much I can do. That's your problem not mine."
They explain, "we can't use the stairs. We need you to make it accessible"
10 years down the line.
"I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss responds, "What do you want?!" "You have created this divide within the workforce whereby only 50% are working. Don't refer to us as able bodied. It's up to you to tell us how to fix the mess that we created?"

was the sheer exhaustion that black women must feel and how unfair that is and as a fellow female this is an area where I think we can speak up and try to improve our empathy

Exhausting is exactly the word. Imagine being gaslighted whenever you suggest your race could be a reason for your mistreatment which is commonly what happens whenever I suggest racism to a white person. Im not saying all white people, before anyone starts.

As an example I spoke to a white friend before the George Floyd situation happened and told them racism is alive and well. They looked at me surprised saying they thought it had gone away years ago and am I sure?!!!?!!

[quote PatricksRum]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
Let's look at it like this.
Let's say disabled as in wheelchair user.

There's a work place. It's office-based work.
The offices are in a high storey building.
This particular office is on the 20th floor.
The only way to access it is via a staircase.
The staircase comprises of circa 500 steps.
50% of the workforce are disabled.
They turn up to work and are met by their boss, they say, "I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss says, "that's a shame. Go home. Try again tomorrow."
The next day, "I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss repeats, "that's a shame. Go home. Try again tomorrow"
Being disabled these employees know that no other workplace will hire then because they are disabled so every day they must continue to attend work and try to access the office.
Years go by and a new boss is appointed.
They turn up, "I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss says, "not much I can do. That's your problem not mine."
They explain, "we can't use the stairs. We need you to make it accessible"
10 years down the line.
"I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss responds, "What do you want?!" "You have created this divide within the workforce whereby only 50% are working. Don't refer to us as able bodied. It's up to you to tell us how to fix the mess that we created?"
[/quote]
Literally no idea what you are talking about.

I just voted for this thread to go in Classics. I think it's really important and should be preserved.

Thing is daisy you should not even have to say “not all white people” because that in itself is weary for you and I think we white people (I am one) need to get a grip and stop being so ...yes..emotionally fragile and desperate for praise/treats like a dog.

I have done the same in the past re “oh surely not” when a friend suggested something was racist. Very ignorant thing to do and demoralising for the friend.

I just saw this. I think it's definitely worth a watch. Been talking to my 18 Y/o and I saw this www.facebook.com/814966608530843/posts/3532354170125393/?vh=e&d=n

Literally no idea what you are talking about.

That's all you have to say?
Unbelievable.

You asked to be educated
I do it and you don't listen

I don't do it and you abuse me.

You're not here to learn but to remind me that you're above me and I'll never be heard.

@WokeUpSmeltTheCoffee Thank you! I have to say I'm so appreciative of MNHQ giving me a platform to be heard. I honestly thought I'd wake with a ban from the site.

Now that is far better and would convince most that now and going forward things need to be different.

Gentle, eloquent, informative and non accusatory. Take note OP.

@siamesy yes you're right but on MN I know how threads can turn when you make generalising statements so thought I should just clarify.

I fully understand the title of the book 'Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race'

Any black person can probably identify with the title of this book - it's because it's so tiring, and somehow you become a villain for calling out racism instead of the victim so you start feeling it's pointless and start shutting down.

Honestly, I just feel conversing with a white person about race is like talking to a brick wall in most cases.

This is the world we live in. And it's such a shame George Lloyds Floyds death is what it has had to take for the world to see this and start to realise racism is still killing black people, and has been killing black people for 400 years.

To those that felt the protesting was selfish and people should abide by covid rules - there's another issue, covid is mainly killing BAME people.

My point being, there's a bigger pandemic than covid that's been going on for 400 years and it's called racism. That is why people felt protesting was more important than social distancing because racism has posed a bigger threat than covid ever has and ever will be.

Gentle, eloquent, informative and non accusatory. Take note OP.*

Who do you think you are?
Take note?
You think I began my teaching of racism by being tired and fed up and blunt?
Don't be so naive