You're white you haven't experienced racism 2 *title amended by MNHQ at OP's request*

[PatricksRum]

I started a thread in the early hours.

I fell asleep
I've checked the thread and it's full.

Whilst the thread sadly proves my OP, there were a lot of great posts and understanding by some MNers.

I think this discussion is so important and I'd like to continue.

These photos sum up the ridiculous responses.

Do not tell me I am doing my oppressed race a disservice
Your racial prejudice faced as a white person do not trump the daily racism and fear for our lives

Finally, if your response to this is to explain your tiny grievances of racial prejudices you've faced then you are wholly part of the problem.

The racist behaviours and thoughts by your people is the problem. It is your duty to understand and tackle it. I repeat, it is not the duty of black people to educate you.

@Osirus

You do seem hold a lot of hate towards white people OP. You can’t hold fight against prejudice and then carry so much of it yourself. This is what is upsetting to so many posters who do want to support and fight for the same values as you do.

I have every ounce of support for the BLM movement. I have black family members. My child has black cousins. She loves them with all her being and has never mentioned the colour of their skin. I hope her heart remains totally untouched by racist views.

Unfortunately, her cousins, all under 10, have experienced racism and it’s heartbreaking. Why is it still like this? I totally agree with you OP, this is a fight that must be won. I stand with you.

But please try to tone down your venom toward white people.

OP does not need to tone down her venom, nor does she need tone policing from you. Stop making it about white feelings.

So no tone policing? Yet you are policing Osirus? We are all entitled to a say.

And white feelz? Heard it all.

I'm a police officer in the UK. I'm white, as is my husband. I work in a deprived area with a very mixed demographic. Neither my husband or I are racist. I thought that was enough. I see now that it isn't. I have ordered a lot of the books that people have mentioned and spent a lot of time reading people's experiences.

I showed my 7 year old DS a photo of a white child and a black child today and asked what his thoughts were and who he would be friends with. He asked which one liked Harry Potter and Minecraft.

@Miriel couldn't agree more

And if you’re able to donate (and I know not everybody is so please don’t feel in any way bad if you can’t. Even just sharing the links on social media is helpful!)

stephenlawrence.org.uk/support-us/donate/
Charitable trust which supports young people to transform their lives by overcoming disadvantage and discrimination.

stop-watch.org
Promotes fair and accountable policing (U.K.) including stop and search policies.
Donate here: stop-watch.org/about-us/donate

And the last one for now. Write to your MP!
One way to help the situation in the US is to put pressure on your MP demanding the immediate suspension of exports of tear gas, riot shields and rubber bullets which are being illegally used against protesters in the US.

(Also worth writing to them re an independent public inquiry into COVID deaths which are disproportionately affectioning the BAME community.
Info here - check if your MP is on the list first and write to them if they’re not, and/or sign and share the google form.)

standuptoracism.org.uk/campaign-statement-no-premature-end-to-lockdown-public-inquiry-now-into-disproportionate-bame-deaths/

Telling white people it is their duty to fight racism and understand their white privilege isn't vicious.

Exactly this.

White people created white supremacy, so only white people can be responsible for mitigating it.

Telling white people it is their duty to fight racism and understand their white privilege isn't vicious

^This, I agree absolutely. It's ridiculous, as most of the posters on here would get mad if a man was telling a feminist board that they shouldn't be angry about the low conviction rate for rape and sexual assault. I don't know why BAME anger about racism is harder to understand.

The road in front of the White House gets a new paint job, under the orders of D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser.

It's not BAME anger though. OP has stated that this is about B only. AME is not included according to OP.

The entire problem of the thread is in its title.

Imagine if during the height of the #Metoo movement a woman had come on here and started a thread 'you're a man, you haven't experienced sexism'.

There would be posters, men and women, coming to say that the OP was wrong. And some men would choose to share their experiences of sexism to demonstrate how to OP was wrong.

The metoo movement was 100% about women, it was their time to share and have their voices heard and men's time to listen as use their more powerful voices to support women. But if a woman tried to make this statement attempting to erase some men's experiences she would rightly be called out.

If that woman then said that what men experienced wasn't sexism, it was sexual prejudice because men hold the power in society other posters would post the definition of sexism on this thread to correct her. And say It is completely correct that both men and woman can experience sexism, the difference is only women experience the entrenched racism in society which means we are ignored by police when we report sex crimes and are at far greater risk of being murdered by our partners ect, simply for being women.

This has probably already been covered on here, but some thoughts: racism is about prejudice based on white power structures / privilege. Therefore POC can not be "racist", but can be "prejudiced" against other races. And as a white person you can experience prejudice, but not "racism".

I read White Fragility (Di Angelo) a while back and realised I was unconsciously racist - that book is a wake up call.

What Di Angelo talks about specifically is anti-black sentiment and uncovering where that comes from.

Most white people think racism is BNP etc so will become very very offended at any suggestion that they are racist and will attempt to silence their accuser with tears, deflection, what ifs, buts, victimhood, tantrums etc and this thread is a bingo card for all of those.

Instead of fighting the OP please just listen and reflect.

@Blursula thank you for your post. I have to require it because it's the closet a quite person has ever been to empathising what it's like being black;

Then I think okay, imagine if I was a woman AND black. Imagine if the frustration I feel in the workplace was DOUBLED. Imagine if I was fighting loads of men on why sexism needed to stop and they just kept saying 'yes but I've experienced injustices too', or 'people have made sweeping hurtful generalisations about men' or 'why should I apologise for how my ancestors treated women'. It would feel like I was screaming about injustice and no sound was coming out.

Being black AND a woman is draining. Surely other women on here understand what it's like to a point to be oppressed by men, so imagine the colour of your skin also adding to that oppression.

Every part of your life has to be considered because of either your colour or gender.

It's exhausting. Seriously tiring.

Imagine being called the n word more times than you can count.

Imagine going to a job interview and being told your colour is going to be an issue (YES that actually happened - in 2010 so NOT the dark ages)

Imagine when you wear your hair natural everyone wants to touch it and look at you as though you just escaped from a zoo.

Imagine people making jokes about your family being drug dealers when you're an educated woman that has nothing to do with narcotics.

Imagine, because of the colour of your skin you are statistically less likely to marry.

Imagine because of your skin colour you are statistically much more likely to be on a low paid job, even get longer prison sentences (yes, studies show the darker your skin the longer you spend in prison).

This is a very brief snapshot. Of what it's like to be black.

@Siameasy I read White Fragility (Di Angelo) a while back and realised I was unconsciously racist - that book is a wake up call.

What Di Angelo talks about specifically is anti-black sentiment and uncovering where that comes from.

Most white people think racism is BNP etc so will become very very offended at any suggestion that they are racist and will attempt to silence their accuser with tears, deflection, what ifs, buts, victimhood, tantrums etc and this thread is a bingo card for all of those.

Instead of fighting the OP please just listen and reflect.

Crucial.

@SevenOceans
It's not BAME anger though. OP has stated that this is about B only. AME is not included according to OP.

We are talking about BLACK people right now.

This thread has gone on this trajectory...

'White people do not experience racism.' (using the relatively new definition of racism which is racial aggravation + institutional power)

'I WAS CALLED A WHITE BITCH IN 1996'

'That doesn't compare.'

'Okay well what about disabled/Indian/Traveler/gay people?'

If you look carefully, you can see this is nothing about white people's experiences, or the experiences of these other groups. The subtext is black people's experiences are not enough to talk about, act upon, listen to, or anything else. Why not? Why can we just not talk about black people ONLY? Can you give a reason? I think I know the reason, I just want to hear it from the horse's mouth.

@StrawWaterBottle the definition of racism has been redefined and honed recently. It is with that new definition we are having this discussion. Keep up.

As @YankeeinKingArthursCourt says 'This has probably already been covered on here, but some thoughts: racism is about prejudice based on white power structures / privilege. Therefore POC can not be "racist", but can be "prejudiced" against other races. And as a white person you can experience prejudice, but not "racism".'

@10storeylovesong I'm a police officer in the UK. I'm white, as is my husband. I work in a deprived area with a very mixed demographic. Neither my husband or I are racist. I thought that was enough. I see now that it isn't. I have ordered a lot of the books that people have mentioned and spent a lot of time reading people's experiences.

This is very encouraging to read. :)

@AvranaKernsBestSpider

HearHooves The reason I asked about your disability (as well as being happy to find another zebra in the wild!) is because of what you said about having to advocate for yourself.

I know you said you have to tell people about your disability and how to help you/make it safe to be at work etc. That can be pretty stressful. A lot of us try to hide it at work because of the “shame”. And I can understand how, when you’ve had to push hard to be believed and get the treatment you need, that being told “figure it out for yourself” (re blm) is perhaps a bit of a kick in the teeth for you? I don’t know. I could be completely wrong here.

The problem is that black people have been trying to advocate and change the system for hundreds of years and still black people can be killed in the street just because they’re black. Children shot. A woman shot in her own home because the police broke in and “mistakenly” shot her. White men feeling free to run down and shoot a black man because they didn’t like the colour of his skin. And far too many more.

When you’ve used your voice and asked for help for hundreds of years and nothing has changed, what on earth do you do? So please, let black people be angry. If they don’t want to teach you, leave them alone. If they want to teach you, listen. Read and watch the resources linked on these threads. Think about how communities came together to help Jewish people - how neighbours hid neighbours and lied for them, the countries who accepted Jewish refugees and helped. Think about how you want people to treat you when you’re distressed and angry and can’t advocate for yourself anymore.

I understand that black people have been fighting for this for hundreds of years. But not the same people, and not with people that they are now expecting to step up and help.

I could use the same argument to justify me not advocating for myself and other people with disabilities in the workplace. I could argue that for hundreds of years disabled people have been abused, marginalised, tortured and so I'm not going to explain or educate anyone, everyone that needs to make adjustments to accommodate me must go and find it out and educate themselves. How far do you think that will get us?

Op, and others don't want a conversation about this and that's completely their prerogative. They can't really complain though when changes are implemented that don't fully meet their needs or don't represent them. Hopefully other representatives will be more willing to engage with politicians and leaders.

@PatricksRum, I empathise.. I get your points and many of us do. You must be exhausted.

I get that 'black lives matter' is a focused message for a very specific issue and should not be mixed or lost amongst other issues.

I get that us white people are more privileged and do not suffer from systematic racism. We might suffer racial prejudice, abuse, bullying and other prejudices. But we do not suffer from systematic racism.

I want racism gone and I'm sure most of us do. Many of us cannot understand why it's going on, its frustrating. Time to find a real way to stop it.

So the word "racism" has been re-defined and now only black people can be subjected to it? Wouldn't it caused less conflict and been easier for people to understand if you'd made up a new word?

What word do we use now for what used to be called racisim directed at people who aren't black?

Somebody upthread talked about BAME anger. I just said what OP had agreed with earlier, that this was not about asian and minority ethnics, so therefore not about the AME of BAME. I don't recall saying anthing about bitches, blonde or otherwise. I just referenced the OP.

@Abbccc Read it again.

'This has probably already been covered on here, but some thoughts: racism is about prejudice based on white power structures / privilege. Therefore POC can not be "racist", but can be "prejudiced" against other races. And as a white person you can experience prejudice, but not "racism".'

This means that anyone systematically victimised by the white power structure experiences RACISM. Anyone else faces RACIAL PREJUDICE.

It is an extremely important distinction.

The very reason it emerged is white people (not Irish or Travellers) conflating what they experience with what black people experience.

I.e. Black person says, "I am being racially victimised at work."
White person, "I know how it is, a client at my workplace called me a white bitch once. We're experiencing the same thing."

The redefinition of the terms helps white people in particular to distinguish between the two, and understand the unique struggles black people and other POC face.

A little research and you'll learn why white people do not realistically suffer from systematic racism. Many BAME people also suffer from it. Theres a difference between systematic racism and racial prejudice which all people can suffer from.

@SevenOceans can you make your final point please because you are just derailing with semantics and ins and outs that are not relevant, tying everything up in knots. What is your final point.

I don't know why BAME anger about racism is harder to understand

Because it's not to do with BAME is it? Op has made it very clear.