You're white you haven't experienced racism 2 *title amended by MNHQ at OP's request*

[PatricksRum]

I started a thread in the early hours.

I fell asleep
I've checked the thread and it's full.

Whilst the thread sadly proves my OP, there were a lot of great posts and understanding by some MNers.

I think this discussion is so important and I'd like to continue.

These photos sum up the ridiculous responses.

Do not tell me I am doing my oppressed race a disservice
Your racial prejudice faced as a white person do not trump the daily racism and fear for our lives

Finally, if your response to this is to explain your tiny grievances of racial prejudices you've faced then you are wholly part of the problem.

The racist behaviours and thoughts by your people is the problem. It is your duty to understand and tackle it. I repeat, it is not the duty of black people to educate you.

Yeah good luck op.

Thank you Coach I appreciate you reaching out. Hopefully others will be able to pick your posts out and find them useful.

[quote creativecringe]@hearhoves you do not have to join netflix. That was used as an example. HR does not just apply to work place..We hire people to do work around our houses. We look through phone books. I didn't think I needed to be very specific. People should be able to logically expand thier thinking and acknowledge other areas that are similar. I can not spoon feed people. [/quote]
Not asking you to spoon-feed me.

Your list was aimed at middle classes, I get it.

OH OP, We will agree to disagree. 💐

You send them to netflix and the library, I'll lend them a seat and a ear for a two way discussion and exploration.

We just have different teaching techniques by the looks of things.

The problem with telling people to just listen in my opinion and experience, is you don't give them the opportunity to question their though process or their inner thoughts and voice them in a impartial and safe space. You don't get the chance to challenge their subconscious if you make them sit there silently without the space to explore and understand.

When you go for councelling you don't just sit there and listen to the councillor, you explore things. Learning for me is similar, it's exploration not a lecture.

OP - this could have been a good opportunity for you, a useful platform. However you’ve alienated people by “ shouting” at them, shutting them down. Well everyone knows that being yelled at and told to be silent has never been an effective method of communication. You’ve let yourself down here, you’ve treated posters rudely and I’m afraid you’ve not won any hearts or minds.

@CoachBombay

OH OP, We will agree to disagree. 💐

You send them to netflix and the library, I'll lend them a seat and a ear for a two way discussion and exploration.

We just have different teaching techniques by the looks of things.

The problem with telling people to just listen in my opinion and experience, is you don't give them the opportunity to question their though process or their inner thoughts and voice them in a impartial and safe space. You don't get the chance to challenge their subconscious if you make them sit there silently without the space to explore and understand.

When you go for councelling you don't just sit there and listen to the councillor, you explore things. Learning for me is similar, it's exploration not a lecture.

That resonates so much, thank you.

I learn through talking, exploring my thoughts, asking questions. I like getting different takes on things and being able to ask further questions when I don't understand.

You've helped me to clarify some of my thoughts, so thank you.

‘That's not about fragility or my hurty feelingz. I think many decent people are afraid to make the situation worse or to cause offence and so they say nothing, not because they don't want to get involved or are racist or any other number of insults but because they don't know what to do so step away.’

This is similar to what I am hearing from people in real life. They think that doing nothing is preferable to doing the wrong thing and making the situation worse.

The answer I have given is to choose one or two issues in life where you can really make a difference, by taking up a volunteering situation or similar. The rest you have to step back from because you can’t resolve every issue in the world.

You’ve let yourself down here,
I haven't.

you’ve treated posters rudely and I’m afraid you’ve not won any hearts or minds.
I have. So many lovely posters.

You’ve let yourself down here, you’ve treated posters rudely and I’m afraid you’ve not won any hearts or minds.

I’ve appreciated the op’s directness and thought her right. One thing I’ll take from the op is that teaching dc to be anti-racist is a good place to start.

@MarshaBradyo thank you so much
Your dc will thank you later.

* But I still think that the criminal justice system while it needs reform is just the end stage of a broken society and a lot needs to change much earlier.

We've told you how. You're choosing to ignore it.*

I'm not ignoring it. I am working as a volunteer in an underserved African American community every week.
I observe by visiting families in their homes, foster parents, schools and the court.
I don't have lived experience as a person of color.
I have thought about this issue long before this last police killing and the spotlight being on the systemic racism in the USA at present it seems an decent time to reflect on what the issues are and how they would be best resolved.

HearHooves The reason I asked about your disability (as well as being happy to find another zebra in the wild!) is because of what you said about having to advocate for yourself.

I know you said you have to tell people about your disability and how to help you/make it safe to be at work etc. That can be pretty stressful. A lot of us try to hide it at work because of the “shame”. And I can understand how, when you’ve had to push hard to be believed and get the treatment you need, that being told “figure it out for yourself” (re blm) is perhaps a bit of a kick in the teeth for you? I don’t know. I could be completely wrong here.

The problem is that black people have been trying to advocate and change the system for hundreds of years and still black people can be killed in the street just because they’re black. Children shot. A woman shot in her own home because the police broke in and “mistakenly” shot her. White men feeling free to run down and shoot a black man because they didn’t like the colour of his skin. And far too many more.

When you’ve used your voice and asked for help for hundreds of years and nothing has changed, what on earth do you do? So please, let black people be angry. If they don’t want to teach you, leave them alone. If they want to teach you, listen. Read and watch the resources linked on these threads. Think about how communities came together to help Jewish people - how neighbours hid neighbours and lied for them, the countries who accepted Jewish refugees and helped. Think about how you want people to treat you when you’re distressed and angry and can’t advocate for yourself anymore.

@midwestsummer
I didn't post that in response to you. I'm confused. Have you quoted two different posts?

@AvranaKernsBestSpider Great post.
I'm now relating that to my disabilities and tirelessly explaining it to people. Good comparison.

*What was the for at 1534 OP?

Surely not because two people discussed illness for a brief post or two?

• But I still think that the criminal justice system while it needs reform is just the end stage of a broken society and a lot needs to change much earlier.

We've told you how. You're choosing to ignore it.*

You put a bit of my post and then replied the above sentence. I was replying to that. But it is a very fast moving thread and could have got muddled.up.

@jangirl - idiotic comments.

You just make up your own sentences and put words in my mouth. Hearts and minds to explain how she feels without alienating everyone. Stop accusing people of being racist.

This is the most pointless and depressing thread I’ve ever encountered.

I’ll not be reading anything more on it.

@midwestsummer I see it now. So sorry. It was meant to be in response to this:
Op however keeps saying that it's not up to black people to tell us how to fix this though so I'm clearly barking up the wrong tree with believing that engaging with the black community is the way to go.
Apologies.

I've been following and read through both threads with interest.

I'm as white as they come. Brought up in a white middle class area, went to an all-white school, live in a white middle part of London, work in a white-dominated industry. Up until a few days ago, I'd always considered myself a very anti-racist, liberal and inclusive person. I feel like I've had a wake up call in that how I think isn't enough. I know I need to do more.

I don't agree with everything the OP says. For example, I do believe that if you have a race, you can experience racism. And I do think that the thread title has, in many instances, worked as an invitation for white people to prove the title wrong by sharing their own experiences of racism. I think that was bound to happen.

But her anger and sheer frustration is justified and threads/discussions like these are absolutely vital - especially on places like mumsnet. And in all honesty they are crucial reading for people like me.

Supporting the BLM movement does absolutely not take away from people's own individual experiences of injustice. The world can be a really shitty place to a lot of people. Supporting and fighting for BLM doesn't mean your experiences of racism or discrimination don't matter; they DO - it just means that right now, they're not the focus. Black lives are the focus here. The systematic, deep-rooted racism of white people towards black people is the focus, and it's abhorrent, and it needs to stop.

I don't know what it's like to experience racism. I've been lucky enough for the colour of my skin to have never affected any aspect of my life. I can't pretend to understand what black people go through every day, and I accept that I will never understand it. The closest I can even attempt to trying to understand is to think about how I feel about sexism. I have (as I'm sure almost all of you have, this being mumsnet) experienced discrimination based on my sex. And it makes my blood BOIL. Then I think okay, imagine if I was a woman AND black. Imagine if the frustration I feel in the workplace was DOUBLED. Imagine if I was fighting loads of men on why sexism needed to stop and they just kept saying 'yes but I've experienced injustices too', or 'people have made sweeping hurtful generalisations about men' or 'why should I apologise for how my ancestors treated women'. It would feel like I was screaming about injustice and no sound was coming out.

I'm not making this about me and I realise sexism is a completely separate topic. They don't compare. I'm just saying that as a privileged white person, this is the closest I can personally get to trying to even comprehend the daily struggle that is faced by black people. And while my experiences are obviously irrelevant, and I will never truly understand, what I CAN do is use this anger from my own experiences of discrimination to help fight the BLM movement. BLM doesn't mean your experiences don't matter - but they don't matter NOW. We've all experienced some form of injustice (the vast majority of us here are women, right?) so let's use those personal experiences to fuel empathy and urgency for the bigger, most important fight that matters here.

I saw a photo of my 2 year old son playing at nursery with his black friend yesterday. I felt so sad that racism is learned, and that out of those two innocent little boys, mine will have better opportunities and different goalposts to his friend as they grow up. I don't want him growing up in a world where that happens.

Instead of sitting down with the telly on, me and my husband talked at length about BLM and systematic racism. About what we can do, say, watch, read, act on - even the little things.

I'm glad these threads exist - so thank you.

Jeez that was long, sorry!

And yes, educating kids is a great way forward and schools too where possible.

When my son was facing racist bullying at his school, the school eventually admitted that they had such a low proportion of BAME kids that it wasn’t something they were used to dealing with. I had to explain how that can be worse - if you’re one of only a few BAME children in a school and you’re getting bullied, which peers do you turn to? Who has your back? Who chases off the bullies for you? Who listens to you when you’re upset?

They asked me for help re-formulating how they deal with racist incidents and how to talk to the white kids and advocate for the BAME kids. I gave them a very long list of what I thought they should do, and links to official resources. My input probably didn’t change the world but it helped change the way the school dealt with racist bullying and hopefully made it a happier place for kids who were having to deal with that.

I appreciate that not many people will have the opportunity to do that but you can probably do something even better

Possibly useful links:

theredcard.org
Show Racism the Red Card - this organisation works in schools to educate children and adults about the causes and consequences of racism. Well worth mentioning to your children’s school.

Another one that parents could send to schools:
standup2racism.org.uk
Reports and reading that would be useful for schools and teachers, especially in majority white areas.

CRER:
crer.scot/copy-of-about-crer-1
Ideas of how to be actively anti-racist in your day to day life (And don’t miss the link near the bottom to “share our publications and resources with decision makers at your organisation, school etc”

You do seem hold a lot of hate towards white people OP. You can’t hold fight against prejudice and then carry so much of it yourself. This is what is upsetting to so many posters who do want to support and fight for the same values as you do.

I have every ounce of support for the BLM movement. I have black family members. My child has black cousins. She loves them with all her being and has never mentioned the colour of their skin. I hope her heart remains totally untouched by racist views.

Unfortunately, her cousins, all under 10, have experienced racism and it’s heartbreaking. Why is it still like this? I totally agree with you OP, this is a fight that must be won. I stand with you.

But please try to tone down your venom toward white people.

"Any white person, in poverty or not, will have more of a voice than any black person." You know this isn't true.

I know you feel that that no forms of oppression compare to racism. You have repeatedly told people that their oppression is "irrelevant". But you are also asking people to stand up and fight for BLM. But to them their oppression is their life and not something that can be pushed aside or dismissed. You know this because you can't push aside your feelings of rage, anger, impotence, and pain. Well neither can they, whether they are a woman who has been repeatedly abused by men and disbelieved, a Jewish person whose entire ancestry has been wiped out, a teenage boy raised by a drug-addicted parent in abject poverty in a Glasgow housing estate. To them their trauma is their primary motivating force. People won't put out a fire that is not immediately affecting them when their own house is burning down - we need to look at who is starting all the fires. To disregard this trauma or say it is "irrelevant" as you have done is just wrong. Not morally, factually. It is relevant to why some people won't engage, why some people don't understand.

I call for all of us who have ever felt oppressed to stand beside black people and lend them our voices because we can empathise, we can at least understand some of that pain if not the full extent.

Wow! This thread is still going, seen today people want a hate crime law in USA. I think it’ll be a good starting point, as so far there are no consequences for racism. Also people are asking for police to be prosecuted for using guns against an unarmed person. Again a good starting point. So far there is nothing in place to protect BAME people

But please try to tone down your venom toward white people.
Are you joking?
I've shared so many posters comments and photos. I've thanked them time and time again, most of the are white. I have no hatred towards white people, only racist white people.
Telling white people it is their duty to fight racism and understand their white privilege isn't vicious.

Thanks OP, no worries.
I didn't set off to work in an African American community, I started looking for something that I could do that fitted my social work skills.
It is noticeable that the best fit for that was in the African American community, they have almost all the looked after children in the city. I started working with dc with significant socioeconomic difficulty and in this part of America that means just black, that wasn't my experience in the UK.
It can't be right that it is the case here.
It is notable that often the only other white person I will see in that large area of the city is a cop.
One foster carer started having white people move into her area it was on the fringes of downtown and then had to move because the rent became too expensive. The inequality gap impacts so much of life.