You're white you haven't experienced racism 2 *title amended by MNHQ at OP's request*

[PatricksRum]

I started a thread in the early hours.

I fell asleep
I've checked the thread and it's full.

Whilst the thread sadly proves my OP, there were a lot of great posts and understanding by some MNers.

I think this discussion is so important and I'd like to continue.

These photos sum up the ridiculous responses.

Do not tell me I am doing my oppressed race a disservice
Your racial prejudice faced as a white person do not trump the daily racism and fear for our lives

Finally, if your response to this is to explain your tiny grievances of racial prejudices you've faced then you are wholly part of the problem.

The racist behaviours and thoughts by your people is the problem. It is your duty to understand and tackle it. I repeat, it is not the duty of black people to educate you.

@garino You yourself have just explained that Jews are a separate entity. They are part of an ethnic group in its own right.
I'm not against white people, I'm against racist white people.
It's a sweeping statement.

So it doesn't matter how many you arrest, they are still twice as likely to die. That isn't fair.

@CoachBombay - not wishing to quibble, but I don't think it says that, I think it has my interpretation.

Do you think that all white people in the UK have magical powers or something?

It's been tirelessly explained to you again and again and again.
Coach explained to you on many an occasion.
I have repeated myself over and over again to you. NotNowPlzz has done also.

Black lives matter. Black lives are at the forefront of the movemt.
No, a white woman doesn't have magical powers but rather a privilege that we don't possess. A privilege that will enable her to be heard far more than any black person.

themental

How do you take immediate corrective action if you've not worked out the causes?

In your post you say that white men are killing black men and then comparing it with men raping women. Well, I think we all agree that anyone killing anyone should be stopped, immediately if not sooner, but which white men are killing black men and in what numbers? Is this a specific group that you are talking about?

Is that the biggest problem facing black people in the UK, that white people are killing them? Honestly, I'm really interested in the discussion because my understanding from various training programmes that I've done is that black men are many times more likely to be killed by other black men. Not for one moment am I identifying that as the main issue. I really understand the range of social inequalities that collide to cause this phenomenon - poverty, lack of good male role models, poverty of aspiration, poor educational experience and outcomes, gangs, drugs, violent neighbourhoods leading to feelings of danger and so encouraging weapons and gang membership and all of that can be traced back to structural inequality and discrimination. So, I'm not blaming black communities at all, rather I'm saying shouldn't that be where the focus is? Will that not have the biggest impact and achieve the biggest benefit for black communities?

Surely Step One is to get agreement that there is a problem?
Then Step Two is to take immediate corrective action?
Step Three - working out the causes and agreeing and implementing long term preventive action will be a long and difficult road. But you can't jump ahead to that when you haven't even completed Step One and Step Two yet.

I find it difficult to talk about the US (I'm in the UK), but I think most people would agree overwhelmingly on step one, that there is a problem.

I'm not sure about step two, but I worry about step three, because I think it causes the white majority to question things in a way that may negatively impact them.

Poster A said “as a white person living in (for eg) Dubai, you have the choice to come home and be safe.” Poster B responded that BAME people have that option too. No. In my relative’s case, if they had gone home they would have been killed.

That's a great point.
Important when discussing racial prejudice against white people.
A poster mentioned being bullied at school and confirmed the racially motivated abuse stopped when she moved school. We just don't have that option. We can't move anywhere without it being a problem.

@Karmagoat I'm sure you meant well however that last sentence shows that you don't understand about white privilege.

This isn't about council estates and working class you made it about you and how you're hard done by. You aren't worried to leave your home because of your skin colour, you won't be killed because of your skin colour."
@WhenISnappedAndFarted no maybe not and never said I was hard done by did I? but what I'm trying to get at is that this began and can only end much higher up and not lower down. I can only do so much

[quote PatricksRum]@garino You yourself have just explained that Jews are a separate entity. They are part of an ethnic group in its own right.
I'm not against white people, I'm against racist white people.
It's a sweeping statement.[/quote]
You told me last night that as a white person, of Jewish heritage, I cannot know what oppression is.

Black lives matter. Black lives are at the forefront of the movemt.
No, a white woman doesn't have magical powers but rather a privilege that we don't possess. A privilege that will enable her to be heard far more than any black person.

And I disagree. A white working class woman living on a council estate does not have much of a voice at all. You can't deny that a black male judge for example will have far more of a voice than a white working class woman?

Honestly, I'm really interested in the discussion because my understanding from various training programmes that I've done is that black men are many times more likely to be killed by other black men.

This isn't racially motivated.
This will involve elements of gang culture, drug wars and knife crime. All these are a symptom of the racism in this country and the poverty black people face, lack of opportunity and education.
We are fighting racism.

You told me last night that as a white person, of Jewish heritage, I cannot know what oppression is.
No I did not. I made a sweeping statement that white people haven't experienced oppression.

And I disagree. A white working class woman living on a council estate does not have much of a voice at all. You can't deny that a black male judge for example will have far more of a voice than a white working class woman?

Any white person, in poverty or not, will have more of a voice than any black person. They won't be completely dismissed due to the colour of their skin.

Honestly, I'm really interested in the discussion because my understanding from various training programmes that I've done is that black men are many times more likely to be killed by other black men.

Yes that fact is absolutely a symptom of oppression.

If people see it as a way to dismiss racism then
they should look a bit deeper.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras you clearly haven't spoken to black people who work in the criminal justice system.

Until white people know the job they do they are presumed to be on trial.

Any white person, in poverty or not, will have more of a voice than any black person
I think your fight for your cause is clouding your judgment by building it on generaslisations.

Are you genuinely believing that a well educated and respected black judge/doctor/professor will always have less of a voice (in which context anyway?) than a druggie and alcoholic living on the worse estate of the UK?

I support the cause completely but not people who make generalisations to justify it which in turn show them as very intolerant.

@PatricksRum

Honestly, I'm really interested in the discussion because my understanding from various training programmes that I've done is that black men are many times more likely to be killed by other black men.

This isn't racially motivated.
This will involve elements of gang culture, drug wars and knife crime. All these are a symptom of the racism in this country and the poverty black people face, lack of opportunity and education.
We are fighting racism.

Fgs, is there any point engaging with you. Read my post - I said exactly that. Why take one sentence from my post and then say exactly what I said? My post is there for everyone to see, you do realise that? What have you said that I didn't say?

I understand that black men killing black men isn't racism. My point is should this not be about improving lives, about ending the inequalities that keep the cycles going?

If you are only going to address the issue of white men killing black men, which is what spurred my post, how much of an impact does that have? How many black men were killed by white men in the past year, or two years? What were the circumstances is was it crime related or was it caused by racism?

What is it that BLM wants to achieve? I've seen people say to stop white people killing black people - which I entirely agree with, but honestly is that the priority when a much bigger cause of death is from within the community?

Any white person, in poverty or not, will have more of a voice than any black person. They won't be completely dismissed due to the colour of their skin.

OP, surely you must see that as a blanket statement that is risible.

Barack Obama has 80 million followers on Twitter. LeBron James has over 40 million followers on Twitter.

@PatricksRum

You told me last night that as a white person, of Jewish heritage, I cannot know what oppression is. No I did not. I made a sweeping statement that white people haven't experienced oppression.

You told me that as a white person I had no understanding of oppression, despite posters repeatedly telling you that was not true across all white people. When I told you that my maternal family were Polish Jews, some of whom died at the hands of Nazis what did you say?

I understand that black men killing black men isn't racism. My point is should this not be about improving lives, about ending the inequalities that keep the cycles going ?

I think that’s exactly the point. Those inequalities cannot be ended until systemic racism no longer exists.

I think that’s exactly the point. Those inequalities cannot be ended until systemic racism no longer exists.

Which was the point I was making. Should we not be concentrating on removing systemic racism rather than from stopping white men killing black men, which is what I'm seeing being called for across SM?

*think your fight for your cause is clouding your judgment by building it on generaslisations.

Are you genuinely believing that a well educated and respected black judge/doctor/professor will always have less of a voice (in which context anyway?) than a druggie and alcoholic living on the worse estate of the UK?*
Yes. Racists don't care for your qualifications or achievements. They just see your skin colour. That's how this whole thing works.

I support the cause completely but not people who make generalisations to justify it which in turn show them as very intolerant.
White privilege isn't an opinion.
I don't need to justify anything.

I understand that black men killing black men isn't racism. My point is should this not be about improving lives, about ending the inequalities that keep the cycles going?*
That is what it's about. It isn't about black men killing black men.*

If you are only going to address the issue of white men killing black men, which is what spurred my post, how much of an impact does that have? How many black men were killed by white men in the past year, or two years? What were the circumstances is was it crime related or was it caused by racism?*
You can Google some statistics yourself. I don't need to show that to you.
The issue with what has happened is that he was killed because of his skin colour and that alone. We need to stop black people being killed altogether of course but we are focusing on them being killed simply because they are black.*

What is it that BLM wants to achieve? I've seen people say to stop white people killing black people - which I entirely agree with, but honestly is that the priority when a much bigger cause of death is from within the community?*
Again this can be researched.
It's the priority because it's racially motivated.
Once we tackle racism the rest (black people stabbing black people) etc will reduce also. As I said this is a symptom of the racism black people are subject to.

How do you take immediate corrective action if you've not worked out the causes?

That's the recognised way to problem solve.

Identify and agree on the problem (black people losing their lives)
Correction / Containment (i.e, police officers arrested, systems put in place to stop the problem right now - training and regulation with swift enforcement)
Root Cause Analysis (How did this happen? Why are racists allowed in the police force? Why were those police officers racist in the first place? Why? 5 Whys)
Corrective and Preventative action plan
Verification

You work on the causes after you have put the fire out and contained the problem in front of you. You'll find this same method in basically every manufacturing plant / organisation that are working to ISO standards. Not to mention every emergency service like Ambulance, Police, and Fire.

Identify problem
Correct / Contain the problem
Root Cause Analysis
Corrective and Preventative Action.
Verify effectiveness

You can't skip to stage three without doing the first steps. And I'm not sure we are actually ALL agreed on step one. Certainly not in the US, anyway.

Op, can you please work out how to bold or quote a post? It is virtually impossible to work out where a quoted post ends and your reply starts.

@PatricksRum

You told me last night that as a white person, of Jewish heritage, I cannot know what oppression is. No I did not. I made a sweeping statement that white people haven't experienced oppression.

Well......you said white people haven't experienced oppression.