You're white you haven't experienced racism 2 *title amended by MNHQ at OP's request*

[PatricksRum]

I started a thread in the early hours.

I fell asleep
I've checked the thread and it's full.

Whilst the thread sadly proves my OP, there were a lot of great posts and understanding by some MNers.

I think this discussion is so important and I'd like to continue.

These photos sum up the ridiculous responses.

Do not tell me I am doing my oppressed race a disservice
Your racial prejudice faced as a white person do not trump the daily racism and fear for our lives

Finally, if your response to this is to explain your tiny grievances of racial prejudices you've faced then you are wholly part of the problem.

The racist behaviours and thoughts by your people is the problem. It is your duty to understand and tackle it. I repeat, it is not the duty of black people to educate you.

Hear because we have a issue with Black Lives.

More black men die in police custody than other BAME populations proportional to the societies demographics. Even in the UK.

There's something not right there. So what we need to do is look at why statisticaly more black men are dying per population head.

We don't need to lift the other ships up in this instance, they all seem to be sailing at round about the same rate, but the black life's ship isn't sailing, so we need to repair that one right now.

It is possible that changes from the BLM movement, benefit the other BAME populations which is great.

But we need to address this statistic at the moment.

All racism is wrong you are correct and I agree with you, and we can continue to address and challenge all instances of it. But right now we just have to repair the sinking ship, not the ones sailing.

Sorry I'm on a phone so can't quite.

Ab yeah I'm not quite sure what OP wanted, but I just didn't want people walking away from this thread thinking they had no voice because they are white, or to feel belittled and attacked. That helps no cause.

It's an important matter, and I wanted to try my best hope it's sort of worked to heal that divide with some calmer conversation.

I missed this second thread. But I agree with you op and the first one.

Someone asked on the previous thread what else can they do. And it’s listen.

Thank you coach and themental I think I'm starting to understand that concept better.

I'm really struggling with how we can isolate the issues faced by black people, particularly in the UK, but I will watch and listen to the discussions in the days ahead and keep my mind open.

Thank you for breaking it down in this way.

@CoachBombay

Sorry I'm on a phone so can't quite.

Ab yeah I'm not quite sure what OP wanted, but I just didn't want people walking away from this thread thinking they had no voice because they are white, or to feel belittled and attacked. That helps no cause.

It's an important matter, and I wanted to try my best hope it's sort of worked to heal that divide with some calmer conversation.

A calmer conversation sounds like a good idea:) thanks.

@KnitFastDieWarm Thank you for your lovely post. I'm very appreciative of your support and posters alike. You're doing a great job for the movement and spreading the words to people who wouldn't take note of our voices. We see what you're doing and thank you for it

Someone asked on the previous thread what else can they do. And it’s listen.

But then do what? That question sounds flippant but it isn't intended to be. If it makes the OP happier, we can listen and say the right words, and I update my facebook profile picture so it says BLM, but beyond that, what do we do?

I posted something upthread that may have got lost, but I agree that racism is a serious and structural problem in the UK.

CoachBombay posted that "More black men die in police custody than other BAME populations proportional to the societies demographics". One simple cause for that statistic is that Black men are more likely to be arrested by the Police

www.bbc.com/news/52890363#:~:text=Over%20the%20past%2010%20years,body%20responsible%20for%20police%20complaints.

Which brings us back to the problem of structural racism - does it mean doing uncomfortable things like investing heavily in state education? Or rehabilitation services? Or ensuring that universities increase access to male black students (at the expense of many of the white MNers children)?

Saying that "white people should stop killing black people" doesn't address the problem and is a slogan, rather than a solution.

@PatricksRum I get that you are angry. I posted on your other thread yesterday about my experience but as you say this isn't about me. As a white person I'm trying to help change things, I'm teaching my children, I speak out if I hear someone being racist. But as a white working class woman from a council estate unfortunately my voice doesnt get heard very far. But I'll try.

@OnceUponACat Thank you

However a wail of anger against all whites everywhere is not a way of problem solving or gaining allies. If it is cathartic for you, go for it, but don’t expect it to achieve anything else.

I'm not angry at all white people simply for being white. There's been so much support from white people on both threads. I've thanked them continuously through both.

@Abbccc no she didn't. What she said is as white people, we can never truly understand what it was like to be born and brought up in the slums of India. At least that's my interpretation of it.

I've read this thread very carefully. I don't think the OP has once been aggressive, although I think that discussion has moved on. Terse, maybe, but can you blame her, she's had to repeatedly repeat herself. She has been pointed, and to the point.

I feel like my eyes were closed and now they're opening. I feel like my whole life I've been proud to consider myself non racist, now I'm ashamed that I haven't been anti racist enough. I didn't know, but I pledge to learn and educate my kids as I go.

@Karmagoat I'm sure you meant well however that last sentence shows that you don't understand about white privilege.

This isn't about council estates and working class you made it about you and how you're hard done by. You aren't worried to leave your home because of your skin colour, you won't be killed because of your skin colour.

White privilege is a load of crap in the UK if you have a foreign name and / or look /sound foreign. To say we don’t experience racism is rubbish and insulting.

Black but that article also states

"When you compare these figures to how much of the population these groups make up (as measured by the 2011 census), black people are more than twice as likely to die in police custody."

So it doesn't matter how many you arrest, they are still twice as likely to die. That isn't fair.

Also I've worked in prisons there are far more white men in there than black men. So I'm not even sure more black men are arrested that white men per population head, but I'm happy to be corrected on that.

Fuck it. Get the feeling Patricks won't thank me for this support on basis that I am openly terfy (and there will be zero apology on that front)
You couldn't be more wrong.*

However. if you can't bring yourself to recognise that there are obvious and significant ways in which racism impacts UK society I don't know what to say to you. Recognising it doesn't take anything away from you but it might mean a great deal to those it affects.*
Is that to me?

Blackkite yes it’s a starting point I posted it mostly because I found the thread depressing. I could understand what the op meant and the tsunami of challenges made it hard reading.

So first listen then what you suggest is at least the start of a conversation around change (not just SM updates no thanks).

I was just listening to a speaker from US who was very good talking about three things, voting, media and all white juries not prosecuting the crimes of police. Not easy things to change for the better but where individuals can make some impact.

*I missed this second thread. But I agree with you op and the first one.

Someone asked on the previous thread what else can they do. And it’s listen.*

Thank you
That is the most important thing. The most vital thing. If something doesn't make sense to you, don't talk just listen and keep listening until the light bulb moment comes.

@BlackKite

Which brings us back to the problem of structural racism - does it mean doing uncomfortable things like investing heavily in state education? Or rehabilitation services? Or ensuring that universities increase access to male black students (at the expense of many of the white MNers children)?

Saying that "white people should stop killing black people" doesn't address the problem and is a slogan, rather than a solution.

In the same way saying that "men need to stop raping women" doesn't address the problem and is a slogan, rather than a solution?

Is it up to us, as women and victims, to come up with all the answers on how we get men to stop committing rape? Are we not allowed to speak out, and call it out, and get vocal about wanting it to stop unless we also give all the answers on how we make it stop?

As for the how and what needs to happen, I'd assume that's up to politicians and policy makers to come back with the answers and the solutions. Right now, and particularly in America, we're not even at the stage where we can all agree that BLM and the system needs to change.

Surely Step One is to get agreement that there is a problem?

Then Step Two is to take immediate corrective action?

Step Three - working out the causes and agreeing and implementing long term preventive action will be a long and difficult road. But you can't jump ahead to that when you haven't even completed Step One and Step Two yet.

I get that you are angry. I posted on your other thread yesterday about my experience but as you say this isn't about me. As a white person I'm trying to help change things, I'm teaching my children, I speak out if I hear someone being racist. But as a white working class woman from a council estate unfortunately my voice doesnt get heard very far. But I'll try.

That's one of the most important things you can do, teach your children. If our children are brought up to challenge racism the future will be Bright. Thanks for all you're doing.

@BlackKite Ultimately it's about leveling the playing field, and this would benefit everyone. I mentioned earlier about a reduction in knife crime, gangs and violence etc.
We need more black people to be in positions of power, they can highlight the issues.
More investment in state education is a great start but it needs to be more focused on black people in particular.

White privilege is a load of crap in the UK if you have a foreign name and / or look /sound foreign. To say we don’t experience racism is rubbish and insulting.

Pp posted earlier about having a black sounding name results in less job interviews and alike.
A white stranger walking is privileged. Their name would be unknown.

This isn't about council estates and working class you made it about you and how you're hard done by. You aren't worried to leave your home because of your skin colour, you won't be killed because of your skin colour

On another thread, a poster is talking about white privilege. They are explicitly saying that it isn't to be used across the whole of society but in comparing two people where everything else is equal.

So, it can't be used to compare the experience of a long term unemployed 50 year old man living in the north of England in an HMO with a black male judge living in a million pound house in London.

It is designed to compare a white 50 year old long term unemployed man with a black 50 year old unemployed man. The point being that the white man will experience privilege because he is white.

If that's the case then how can you say that a white working class woman living on a council estate has any real power or influence in society? That poster didn't make it about her experience, she was saying that she will do everything that she is able to do, but that what she is able to do is limited by her position in society. Why are you challenging that? Do you think that all white people in the UK have magical powers or something? What extra influence over the ruling classes donee have, in your view? I can lobby my MP, as can everyone else. I can sign petitions, as can everyone else. I can certainly challenge any racism that I see and maybe as a white person I have more opportunity to do that than other people, depending on circumstances. For example, maybe a white woman wouldn't feel safe to challenge a group of men who were being racist or someone might well not feel able to challenge it at work of to do so risked losing their job, which is why laws need to be introduced to protect employees who challenge racism in the workplace, similar to whistleblowing protection.

The whole of the Nazi ethos was based on race laws, targeted specifically against Ashkenazi Jews who are white skinned. The Nazis targeted them based on their race, their physical appearance, they even did things like measured their noses and looked at how far apart their eyes were and rounded up people based on whether they looked typically Jewish. Even secular and atheist Jews were persecuted because they looked Jewish. So that is racism and any white Jews have experienced similar in modern times. They are a distinct ethnic group as can be seen from genetics and DNA.

Instead of your title saying "You're white, you haven't experienced racism" which isn't true, why not change it to "Black people are being persecuted and everyone needs to fight this". Make it for black people not against white people.

*no she didn't. What she said is as white people, we can never truly understand what it was like to be born and brought up in the slums of India. At least that's my interpretation of it.

I've read this thread very carefully. I don't think the OP has once been aggressive, although I think that discussion has moved on. Terse, maybe, but can you blame her, she's had to repeatedly repeat herself. She has been pointed, and to the point.

I feel like my eyes were closed and now they're opening. I feel like my whole life I've been proud to consider myself non racist, now I'm ashamed that I haven't been anti racist enough. I didn't know, but I pledge to learn and educate my kids as I go.*

Thank you so much. I'm really really trying. There was a poster earlier that was so testing and I'm ashamed that I caps locked and swore (not at her but to her). But I'm really trying.

The most frustrating thing is constantly repeating that BLM doesn't dismiss that all lives matter.
Helping a primary school dyslexic child write a sentence doesn't mean you aren't aware that the rest of the class requires help. It's such a simple thing but there's one poster in particular who just doesn't get it.

Please don't feel ashamed. Only racists should be ashamed and it's great you're now making a point to challenge racism as you see it. Your kids are lucky! Thank you.

Different BAME groups do have different experiences. Some of my family immigrated here from a politically unstable country. They faced racist comments here due to their appearance/accent/nationality. (They are “brown” but very clearly not black.)

However, they were never treated badly by the police. They never had to worry about being pulled over when driving, they didn’t get followed around shops by security. In fact, “secret services” often provided protection when government factions from their country of origin came to the UK to attempt to murder them.

So while they were definitely affected by racism, they weren’t affected by systemic racism that other BAME groups, especially black people face. So absolutely right now, in this climate, Black Lives Matter.

Connected to this, something someone said upthread wasn’t quite true. Poster A said “as a white person living in (for eg) Dubai, you have the choice to come home and be safe.” Poster B responded that BAME people have that option too. No. In my relative’s case, if they had gone home they would have been killed.