You're white you haven't experienced racism 2 *title amended by MNHQ at OP's request*

[PatricksRum]

I started a thread in the early hours.

I fell asleep
I've checked the thread and it's full.

Whilst the thread sadly proves my OP, there were a lot of great posts and understanding by some MNers.

I think this discussion is so important and I'd like to continue.

These photos sum up the ridiculous responses.

Do not tell me I am doing my oppressed race a disservice
Your racial prejudice faced as a white person do not trump the daily racism and fear for our lives

Finally, if your response to this is to explain your tiny grievances of racial prejudices you've faced then you are wholly part of the problem.

The racist behaviours and thoughts by your people is the problem. It is your duty to understand and tackle it. I repeat, it is not the duty of black people to educate you.

Women and black people have so much in common in the way we’ve been treated - it takes a planet of billions to hold us back

To paraphrase Al Sharpton -
Get your knees off our fucking necks

To quote Benjamin Zephaniah :
We don’t have a chip on our shoulders, we have injustice on our backs

@PatricksRum i’m so glad my post on the previous thread was helpful. I’m so sorry you’re having to bang your head against the brick wall of blithely ignorant white privilege yet again here on this thread. Know that so many of us DO get it, we support you, we hear and empathise with your grief and pain, we are amplifying the voices of POC, we are listening, and we are out there making sure our friends and families are listening. Please look after yourself and step away or take a breather if you need to

There is really no excuse for 'not seeing or thinking about racism'... the facts and evidence have been horrifically obvious for so long.

Serious question from my part - when people on here and in real-life were advocating for government policies such as austerity, were they being knowledgeably racist?

Justnot yes, I don't understand how posters can understand male privilege but not understand white privilege.

We woman walk in to a job interview they know we are a woman. A unconscious bias by the interview panel will be in place. Same goes for BAME population.

CoachBombay

No, your experience was absolutely not rebutted, at all. I said what happened to you was utterly unacceptable and should not happen.

I also raised the issue of Travellers being discriminated against by having wedding bookings cancelled. Where do you get the bit about being allowed to check into a hotel because of white privilege from?

I can't understand how people that have faced discrimination themselves then judge someone else's discrimination as being somehow less bad.

What happened to you was reprehensible. I cannot believe that attitudes like that still exist. It is inexcusable in every way.

I also can't believe how a booking for a wedding can be cancelled once an establishment discovers the race of the attendees. That's reprehensible and inexcusable.

I can't understand how you can think that having your wedding cancelled based on your race is a lesser case of discrimination than being turned away from s hotel. How is that an example of white privilege?

renieddolodge.co.uk/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race/

This is the blogpost that turned into the book - the book is now a bestseller again in all charts over the last week...

Because It is not an example of white privilege.

I have never been refused entry to a hotel, nor have I been turfed out in the middle of the night once they’ve realised they’ve let me in ....

It is a disgrace. No-one should be treated like this. Unfortunately on this thread no one else matters.

And that ain’t coming from a place of white privilege or superiority. It can’t be that from me no matter how hard I try. Just common decency for anyone who has been put down for being what or who they are.

@CoachBombay

Justnot yes, I don't understand how posters can understand male privilege but not understand white privilege.

We woman walk in to a job interview they know we are a woman. A unconscious bias by the interview panel will be in place. Same goes for BAME population.

I agree with your post.

However, you specifically refer to the BAME population ( as have I throughout my posts).

The op, and from what I can gather the BLM movement isn't referring to BAME population. Op has stated that it's only the black population that they are referring to.

I agree with you. All racism is abhorrent to me and we should be doing all that we can to remove it from society. Racism has no place in s civilised society but doesn't that mean stopping racism for everyone that is facing it?

There must be something that I'm missing and I would welcome someone explaining it to me because I'm clearly not understanding why we are being told to focus on racism against black people rather than racism towards all BAME people.

It's not just about stuff like getting chucked out of a hotel @CoachBombay.

Travellers in the UK have worse access and outcomes when it comes to health, education, employment opportunities, housing access, representation, access to law etc even when compared to BME people. The UN has noted how our situation is "particularly dire".

I'm a Traveller and my DH is black African, my DDs life chances have actually improved by having a black father.

Racism and oppression are not as clear cut as many would like to believe.

Educate yourself.

I don't really know how to explain this right now really to you, Black Lives Matter is the movement and not BAME life matters.

Yes all lives matter, but at this very moment in time the discussion is revolving around black lives.

Black people in the USA and the UK have worse statistics for poverty, crime, incarceration and racism than other members of the BAME population.

Yes you can say but your only choosing one race, but that's because statistically that's the worse off race right now. Not many Chinese or other Asian communities are being systematically arrested and killed in custody. The other BAME population are not as badly effected by poverty and austerity as the black community. Now I'm not saying the other BAME population don't matter, yes they do of course they do, but what BLM is doing is shining a light on the worse of race in our wester cultures today.

Yes other BAME populations face horrendous acts of genocide and racism globally. Even white people face this globally. But for once the discussion is about black lives.

All acts of racism are horrendous, and yes we should question and challenge every act of racism or prejudice or inequality, but right now the discussion is about BLM, this civil rights movement is about black people, there's no need to turn up with a suffragette banner.

When women marched on Washington for inequality for women the BLM movement didn't turn up and erect a stand and start giving out t-shirts. No cause trump's another in my opinion, not at all, but each cause should have space and time to air their grievances.

Does that make sense? Apologies if it doesn't.

OP you are incredibly patronising telling people what their "duty" is. I'll decide what my duty is, thanks very much. And no, I'm not racist - I'm anti-racist. I just don't like someone barking instructions at me when I'm trying to help.

In my experience when you start saying that only one group of people matter, that means they matter more.

And everyone matters equally or we’ll keep going down this road. It isn’t a road I care to be on if only some of us matter.

..By the way, I'm not at all trying to say the BLM movement should be about anyone other that Black people, I'm happy to listen and learn and have always tried my best to. I just won't stand for ignorant statements that seek to undermine the very real plight of my community.

Wizard I agree, and the traveller community have high levels of incarceration, poor housing prospects and lower levels of education within the community like you stated. And yes their lives matter too, of course they do, and the inequality placed against that community needs to and must be looked at. I completely agree with you. I would support a TLM movement and would speak just about that if and when it was brought to the forefront.

Nobody matters more, it's about lifting everyone up to a level playing field. BLM is attempting to do that for the black community right now, today, they don't matter more, it's just their voice needs to be hard more right now, today so we can understand the plight of this community. Silencing them with All lives matter is not the answer.

Don't get me wrong I don't agree with screaming and shouting and putting people down saying they can't understand, educate yourself. It's why I haven't engaged with OP because it's my personal opinion that's not how you win favour.

All lives matter yes, but let's talk about black lives matter for a bit. The discussion is broad about race, so we have to pull it apart and look at one community at a time to understand the unique plight and adversity that particular community face.

I'm all for working through every BAME population, every religion every sex one at a time to see what can be done to make everyone equal.

I completely agree with what you've said @CoachBombay.

I haven't jumped in with "all lives matter" and never would. I'd be pretty pissed off if a TLM movement was hijacked by non-Traveller BAME peoples.
I wouldn't deny that those groups don't suffer racism though.

I'm glad we're on the same page Wizard 😊

When women marched on Washington for inequality for women the BLM movement didn't turn up and erect a stand and start giving out t-shirts. No cause trump's another in my opinion, not at all, but each cause should have space and time to air their grievances.

This is where I feel that I don't have a right to participate in the discussion because, to me, this appears to be discrimination of a high level. How do we measure who is suffering the greatest level of discrimination and oppression? Comparing it to a women's rights march being hijacked by a BLM contingent feels like comparing apples with oranges.

If you'd said a demonstration by working women was hijacked by stay at home mums for example, both demanding women's rights as they applied to them then I don't see anything wrong with that at all. But then I'm white so I feel like I have no right to be in this discussion other than I'm being expected to use my voice to affect change for one particular group of people when my personal experience informs me that other minorities also experience terrible racism. That feels morally wrong to me. Can you understand that?

Any politician that I'm hearing speak now is talking about the BAME population and the discrimination that they suffer so has the fight been expanded anyway?

What amazed me most about these threads was the white posters who were very vociferous in explaining the racism they had experienced or the racism friend’s had experienced, one such went on to say (paraphrasing) :

“I have experienced a lot of racism, the worst by far was when I had a can of Sprite thrown at me, whilst walking with my 5yr old!”

She was absolutely raging, but couldn’t understand why black people as a global group were angry at years and years of racist oppression, subjugation and attacks, upon every single generation of their family and community.

Hear of course you can engage, and you probably do so every day by challenging racism or racial thoughts, I imagine.

What I was trying to say is it's a bit like a group of people discussing the economy of India and the slums, and then someone joining the conversation to say we have slums in China too, we should do something about that now. Yes we know that, both slums need addressing but we're talking about slums in India right now and the solution to eradicate those slums in that economy.

A bit like brain storming meetings on one issue. Doesn't mean the other issues aren't as important, it's just not what we are brainstorming right now.

Does that make sense?

Please don't feel you can engage, if anything as a white woman you have a perfect platform to engage to stand in unity with the BLM movement and say out loud. I stand with BLM and I want to discuss this issue with them.

Again apologies if my analogies are not coming through well.

I'm all for working through every BAME population, every religion every sex one at a time to see what can be done to make everyone equal.

You want to work through each group one by one? Really? So right now you've got thousands of people rioting, of all different races, to fight for one minority group. So, are we going to do the same for Asian people next year, Hispanics the year after, Syrian refugees the following year, Travellers the year after?

If a Mexican man gets liked by police next week in America should we abandon the BLM and take up the fight for Hispanic people?

Why won't the power of this fight being used to end racism, rather than racism to one specific group? That just feels so very divisive to me.

What I was trying to say is it's a bit like a group of people discussing the economy of India and the slums, and then someone joining the conversation to say we have slums in China too, we should do something about that now. Yes we know that, both slums need addressing but we're talking about slums in India right now and the solution to eradicate those slums in that economy.

Firstly, thank you for engaging with me and explaining it to me. I am coming from a place of believing that all racism is wrong and so this is very difficult to get my head around.

Again, I understand your example when it applies to separate countries. What I can't understand is how that would be right if applied to say people from India and China, living in the UK who were both suffering racism.

I don't agree with the "all lives matter" if it's being used to shut down BLM or even if it's being used to try to include people like me in it. I absolutely agree that BLM and I support the raising of awareness that BLM protests are bringing to the oppression experienced by black people. I guess where I disagree is if that movement is being used to effect changes that will only benefit or support black people, at a structural level. I will use my voice, and my privilege if you want to call it that, to support BLM but I'll also at the same time be using it to equally support and fight for an end to all racism and I will challenge it wherever I see it.

Hear yes I believe you would need to work through each one to understand what adversity each unique group face. Homogenised approach doesn't work.

Mexican Americans face different issues to African Americans, mainly immigration status but they also have high levels of crime and incarceration and poor education. Sometimes because they are not "legal" they are unable to attend state education.

Single mother's face different issues to cohabiting couple mothers. You'd have to look at each one, to see what the issue is and how it can be resolved, same for men Vs women.

@CoachBombay

Hear yes I believe you would need to work through each one to understand what adversity each unique group face. Homogenised approach doesn't work.

Mexican Americans face different issues to African Americans, mainly immigration status but they also have high levels of crime and incarceration and poor education. Sometimes because they are not "legal" they are unable to attend state education.

Single mother's face different issues to cohabiting couple mothers. You'd have to look at each one, to see what the issue is and how it can be resolved, same for men Vs women.

But why can't they be worked through simultaneously? Why can't we take this momentum.now and insist that all ethnic minority groups are looked at, as individual populations, but at ten same time? Does that take away from BLM? The adage "a rising tide raises all ships" springs to mind.

If we think about disability rights we didn't legislate for each individual disability separately did we, even though the needs of people with different different disabilities vary widely and the discrimination faced may all be very different.

CoachBombay I think this is a good analogy and makes sense "What I was trying to say is it's a bit like a group of people discussing the economy of India and the slums, and then someone joining the conversation to say we have slums in China too, we should do something about that now. Yes we know that, both slums need addressing but we're talking about slums in India right now and the solution to eradicate those slums in that economy."

But what the OP said was " There are no slums in any countries except India and there never has been. ".

What I can't understand is how that would be right if applied to say people from India and China, living in the UK who were both suffering racism.

I think an analogy for this would be... comparing it to hospitals.

You have a country with chronically underfunded hospitals. All hospitals are in trouble, and patients are not receiving great treatment, but you have one hospital where there are rogue doctors killing people. These doctors all went to a school that preached killing patients. People have been complaining about that hospital for years and nobody's done anything about it.

Finally people start standing up, campaigning to get that hospital closed down.

They want the doctors arrested as a first step. The next quick fix would be closing down the hospital. The next step, closing down the school where these hospitals are trained. The next step, ensuring all doctors are trained so that killing people can't happen.

Then, once you've put the immediate fire out, you can start to deal with the problem of why the whole system is chronically underfunded.

But changing the argument from "X hospital is killing innocent people! We must stop this, and all the things that led up to this" to "all hospitals are underfunded"... that's opening an even bigger can of worms. How can you take measures quickly to fix all hospitals across the whole country? You probably can't. But there are things you can do for the specific X hospital problem if everyone just agrees that right now, it's the most important thing we need to do.