To hope this racist woman loses her job - thread 2

[zscaler]

But Vlad says she doesn't want allies, so what's the point?

The point is, you do it because it’s the right thing to do, not because you might gain something (trust / respect / gratitude / praise) from it.

You do it because all white people have a moral responsibility to dismantle racism, and that shouldn’t be dependent on black people asking us to do it, or being polite, or being grateful for our allyship.

Because it’s the very bare minimum we could and should do.

People are openly admitting they are racist though on this thread. Just because you admit it doesn’t make it okay. If a white person made the same comments about black people we’d up be up in arms. Fact. Dress it up however you want but as PP said, you don’t get to criticise racism whilst being racist. It’s hypocritical

So from what you’ve just said, it’s okay to be racist providing you own it. Because people have admitted to disliking white people based on race, they haven’t been challenged the way a white person who held the same views would be.

Don’t any of you think your being racist towards white people by putting them all in the same category
I'm not interested in the opinion of someone who can't get 'your' correct . Their whole statement is pig headed and I dont have the head space to try and educate them.
There are plenty on here, Vlad in particular, who have done an amazing job and still they get the outrageous Karen responses.

@mookie81 that’s brilliant, attacking someone’s grammar to belittle them.

Clearly I’ve pointed something out that you don’t like, I’m not the one being racist though am I

I’d love to know how it’s pigheaded

White people and black people are on different levels and white people caused this. Black people are reacting.

You get to challenge them when it's an equal playing ground. For now, every white person in some way benefits from the racist structure black people have to put up with day in day out. White people don't get to say shit about black people, they've done enough and are still doing it.

Black people get to react.

Would you say the same thing to a woman who has sworn off all men because she was raped? Would you chastise her and tell her she's being sexist or hateful because she's saying all men are awful and she hates them? Would you try to make her feel guilty for hating men? Would you not let her feel what she feels? Would you expect her role to be that of a male ego stroker just so she can make some men she comes across feel better?

That's what you want black people to do for you - tell you that you're different and they understand you. Stroke your white woman ego. Guess what, they don't know if you're different or not and it's proven time and time again when a supposedly innocent white woman or policeman attacks one of them. They don't have a crystal ball to know who is whom.

What is the general rhetoric of the FWR again? Do they spend their time trying to separate the good men from the bad men? They hate anyone coming into their discussion saying #notallmenz, don't they? Yet black people need to accommodate your #notallwhitepeople.

People are openly admitting they are racist though on this thread. Just because you admit it doesn’t make it okay. If a white person made the same comments about black people we’d up be up in arms. Fact. Dress it up however you want but as PP said, you don’t get to criticise racism whilst being racist. It’s hypocritical

Let me tell you why I don't have a problem with it.

A long time ago, I used to be really careful about offending men in discussions about women's rights. But one day, I saw a couple of women who weren't quite careful enough, and they got leapt on by some men, who said, basically (and I paraphrase) if you don't care about offending us, why should we care about your rights?

A few women replied in a very erudite way that support that was conditional and could be lost so easily wasn't support worth having. A lightbulb went on in my head, as I realised how much time was spent tiptoeing around male feelings, instead of explaining our own, and how pointless it all was, if 1000 careful posts would get ignored in favour of jumping upon one blunt post.

I realised at that moment that support for human rights of others shouldn't be conditional on the oppressed group liking you back. You're not supposed to be in it just to get them to kowtow to the wonderful ally, and you shouldn't be disrupting discussion to turn it around to you.

And it's exactly the same when white people do it to black people. Okay, sure maybe it's a little hurtful to read these posts, but where are they coming from? They are coming from a place of fear, because they are oppressed. Should they shut up about how racism makes them feel because it's unpleasant to hear? It's going to be considerably worse to feel that fear than it is for us to read a couple of posts about it.

You haven't pointed out anything new that hasn't already been explained if you had read both threads properly, PlantPotting.

You're actually proving that PP were absolutely right.

“We caused this” I didn’t do shit! Never have, never will. So don’t put that on me, that “I” did this. Such an ignorant comment to make.

“You get to challenge them when it’s an equal playing field”

So for now put up with racism

@GlendaSugarbeanIsJudgingYou with all due respect there is a lot of comments to read.

You are not the victim here.

@glenda I have never said I am, I’m simply pointing out that if the tables were turned the comments would not be the same.

So you thought it was more important to post about your hurt feelings than read what people are saying about these important issues?

Can I ask why?

Would you say the same thing to a woman who has sworn off all men because she was raped? Would you chastise her and tell her she's being sexist or hateful because she's saying all men are awful and she hates them? Would you try to make her feel guilty for hating men? Would you not let her feel what she feels? Would you expect her role to be that of a male ego stroker just so she can make some men she comes across feel better?

Excellent comparison. I expect decent men not to take fear of men as a class as a personal affront in such a situation, and I demand no more of them than I do of myself when it turns out I'm a member of the class in question.

@NotAgainNo so, if I posted a question saying

“I was attacked & mugged by a black man & now I’m scared of all Black people because I think they are going to mug/Assault me”

What do you think my responses would be?

I’m sorry to all if I’m coming across argumentative or ignorant but at this time, it’s when we should be all coming together not attacking eachother or distancing ourselves. As Vlad pointed out way back in this thread, she needs WP to stand up against racism, how can WP if they are all viewed as being racist or are we hoping to do this for the next generation of people as ours is too badly damaged to recover

with all due respect there is a lot of comments to read.

Indeed there are and most of us have managed to read them all. I suggest you go away and do the same. Then you might just understand what's being discussed.

@GlendaSugarbeanIsJudgingYou of course you can ask why.

Because we are all suppose to be coming together to fight this, it’s not white v black it’s not black v Asian. It’s right vs wrong! It doesn’t matter what race you are providing you know right from wrong & you stand up for your own beliefs and for the good of others (regardless of race) it’s creating a bigger divide.

I'm sure during the time of slavery, there were white people who didn't directly participate in it but stood back and not only watched, they inadvertently both benefitted from the labour of the slaves and participated in the maltreatment of black people.

Slavery isn't dead, it's just taken on a different form. Some are actively participating in it, some wield that power when they want to, some are inadvertently looking on while benefitting from the structure that mistreats black people.

It's in the very fabric of our society and as long as you're living your life well enough to come on here and only have "notallwhitepeople" as a response (and not care to rtft), you're happily benefitting from it and you're okay in your ignorance.

@notagainno why don’t you mention the small amount of people who never participated in those acts against slaves? Who never believed it was the right thing to do. Does this not matter?

Good post from NotAgainNo there

The only people who find it divisive when ethnic minorities talk about their fears are people who weren't going to help.

People who were going to help say, "ouch, but I can see why they're saying this".

why don’t you mention the small amount of people who never participated in those acts against slaves? Who never believed it was the right thing to do. Does this not matter?

Funny thing. People have written books about them. I've read some of them, and what struck me how fucking few white folks there were to ally with them.

Even in the 20th century, black people in America got their civil rights on their own, just like women did in the UK. Privileged groups never want to share.

Now. As a fellow white person, please stop sowing division by demanding that people tiptoe around our feelings. Please.

@potholeparadise there may have been very few but those very few that made a difference to some lives weren’t even worth a mention in your post, you came across like they never existed. To treat somebody differently based on race is racist, as I’ve said whichever way you want to dress it up. Only nobody will acknowledge that on this thread. Because we’re all the same

Right. So now you've said it, #notallwhitepeople. It was important for you to speak on this injustice against you. Now you've done so, is there anything you have to say about the actual injustice this thread is addressing? Can you speak up about it too with this same energy?

I’m sorry to all if I’m coming across argumentative or ignorant
Yes you are.

This thread (and the previous one) is depressing. Informative and needed but depressing.

Just when the discussion turned and the whitesplaining had abated. We get chooseHim and PlantPottingPlantPotting Karening after I already had to wade through 40 pages of racists with NotTerfNorCis and SkinRash leading the charge.

This is mumsnet worse aspect.

It's like bloody whack a mole on here. Explain, discuss and yet racist after racist pops up.

I actually feel sorry for people like you, that cannot see how you are willing to judge a whole race by a small number. If the world Is full of people like you then we will not get past this will we. To call me ignorant when a number of posters have discriminated against a whole race of people is rather laughable. As it goes, we’re not all the same. Some of us will not walk on by or ignore racist comments & we will stand up for people being attacked in such a way. I hope one day you see this so you believe it