More bashing of mumsnet

[Ikeasucks]

Why are orgs and businesses just capitulating to this bullying? mobile.twitter.com/MForstater/status/1265201870437519360

How can there be intersex people if there are no sexes to be inter of?

And people with differences of sexual development are either male or female.

Well, quite. And people with DSDs have repeatedly asked not to be co-opted as some kind of proof that people without any kind of DSD are anything other than the sex they unequivocally are.

Transactivists co-opting the term “sex assigned at birth” is actually an act of interphobia.

As is your attempt to use people with DSDs as a gotcha, @Booboostwo. Interphobe.

Oh, @booboo please don't.

For so very many reasons, neatly outlined already, that's such a pointless thing to post.

There are 2 sexes.

There are a number of variations of the condition 'intersex'

But intersex people are, like everyone else, either male or female...

no, there is no firm biological distinction between men and women

Ok, I admit, this is genuine transphobia from Booboostwo here. It completely invalidates the experience of transsexuals. What are they changing from and to, if there are no sexes? Their struggle with their feelings about their sexed body are all based on nothing?

there is no firm biological distinction between men and women, the existence of intersex people shows that quite clearly

I've heard real, live research biologists from universities say very differently, that there are two clear biological sexes in mammals, and intersex people are people with DSD (developmental sexual disorder). THe simplest understanding of genetics & sexual reproduction would suggest that there will always be "mutations" - we all have mutations. DSD is rare but actually proves that there are 2 sexes.

And just to save time: no, there is no firm biological distinction between men and women, the existence of intersex people shows that quite clearly.

This is completely preposterous. Putting aside for a minute that intersex people and orgs have repeatedly asked not to be used as a prop by trans activists, the occurrence of intersex in humans is extremely small.

And no, including conditions such as polycystic ovaries and hypospadias does not count as intersex unless someone is attempting to 'widen the umbrella' for propaganda purposes.

Intersex people do have a sex and with recent developments in medicine it's been easier to diagnose what is their base sex is when it doesn't present as obvious just by physical exam. Some intersex conditions only affect either male or female people.

Without the baseline of two sexes, two types of gamete there wouldn't be such a thing as intersex.

Such a shame. I was considering leaving my current union of many years and going to GMB, but obviously that's not going to happen.
I'm off to FWR to see the women deal with the fishing-for-transphobic-posts thread. Those women are v funny.

Snap duggee

Not any more.

One question I'd like answered is why there are so few transmen over the age of 30. If the recent huge increase is down to increased public acceptance of trans identities, where are the older females transitioning in response to lifelong gender dysphoria?

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g - I'll have a stab at this - I have a friend in her mid 50's who says, had she been a teenager today, would definitely have transitioned. She's muddled along through life and has found a way to present that she is vaguely ok with, although she's not really comfortable in her own skin. It also helps that she can use 'Dr' instead of Miss, Mrs, or Miss, which do not sit right with her.

She wouldn't transition now because it would be a big ordeal at this age when her sexuality and gender ID is not such a focus of her life anymore - she's not interested in relationships (I think partly because she has got used to not feeling right and that translated to fear of how people would engage with her body during intimate relationships). She doesn't have the drive to transition now and has several health issues that would make surgery dangerous anyway... but she speaks wistfully of what it would have been like to transition young when she had her whole sexual/ relationship life ahead of her.

I recognise that MN does what it can to moderate but if a site unfortunately featured frequent sexist or racist posts and threads that had to be deleted, you'd say that that site had a racism or sexism problem. no

Have you actually looked around on Twitter? Have you been to the farms?

Even bloody Facebook.

All of them have some utterly disgusting things on them.
I'm still upset about this and it's over a year ago now, wandering through Twitter and saw what I thought was going to be a twee video, it turned out to be a man fucking a dog. I reported it, never even got a reply.
If you see what is written on Twitter by MAPs and NOMAPs you would probably vomit. They are beyond vile and disgusting, yet they are still on twitter, still tweeting in plain sight. How much more vile can it get.

Justine has responded in Site Stuff. She has reached out to GMB and hopes the Q&As can recommence. Watch this space to see if they respond!

There is no transphobia. Transphobic posts are reported and deleted, as they should be. Mumsnet supports the rights of women, which are being gradually eroded

I'm off to FWR to see the women deal with the fishing-for-transphobic-posts thread. Those women are v funny.

I've been on here too long. I could tell just from the thread title which one it was!

I recognise that MN does what it can to moderate but if a site unfortunately featured frequent sexist or racist posts and threads that had to be deleted, you'd say that that site had a racism or sexism problem

Just had a look on twitter. In one minute of clicking around I saw posts saying "You give good n** loving whites a bad name" (without the asterisks), "Women who want to complain about being single mum's need to shut the fuck up! If you're not in a stable relationship, close your God damn legs and stop being a slut!",
"go be gay somewhere else fg, this is a straight website. I oppose incest and homosexuality because they are gross and wrong" (no asterisks).

Are you campaigning to stop businesses using Twitter?

If you see what is written on Twitter by MAPs and NOMAPs you would probably vomit

For those not familiar with the terms MAPs is the nice fluffy name given to paedophiles - Minor Attracted Person.

So twitter is a paedophile friendly site, and therefore GMB endorses paedophilia by using the same platform?

I'm still upset about this and it's over a year ago now, wandering through Twitter and saw what I thought was going to be a twee video, it turned out to be a man fucking a dog. I reported it, never even got a reply.

uuuuggghhh, sorry, I didn't even see your post. It's all over Twitter and they're not handwringing about deleting any of it in case they offend anyone.

There is no transphobia. Transphobic posts are reported and deleted, as they should be.

Do you see the problem with this statement?

popehilarious, I don't understand your argument. Twitter is full of bile so transphobic posting on MN is fine?

Are you campaigning to stop businesses using Twitter?

No. I'm not campaigning to stop businesses using MN either. I'm just flagging that I think (as do lots of other people) that MN has a problem with transphobic posters and posting. If others want to lobby against whatever website, that's up to them. Free speech innit.

Lots of forums have problems with trolls, ditto the newspapers, BBC etc. they are like whack a mole, ban them on one site they pop up again under another name.

I absolutely love the fact that these threads highlight the organisations taking a stance against the transphobia on here. (Yes it's here, no I won't be trawling through to find examples for you, whether you believe me or not matters not one jot to me.

Shame I'm not eligible for the GMB or I'd switch my uniom

thedancingbear
I have explained my argument, but I'll try again.
Any platform that instantly posts unvetted posts is open to people posting anything vile.
It's open to trolls, GFs, racists, literally anyone who wants to type anything for any reason then press 'post'.
I've seen some truly hideous overly racist stuff on Facebook, Twitter, newspaper comments pages.
It doesn't make those platforms inherently phobic - it's what they do with it that counts. If they don't address the posts then yes the platform is problematic.
If they draw up Talk Guidelines, use moderation and open reporting policies to delete posts and ban repeat offenders then the platform is clearly not ok with these posts standing.
If the platform is not ok with transphobic posts standing then the platform cannot be said to be transphobic.

If your argument is not the one being discussed in this thread, i.e that Mumsnet is/isn't a transphobic platform that allows transphobic slurs etc to stand then perhaps find or start a more relevant thread.

Or are you suggesting that because a disgusting racist might go and type racist things on a thread, the whole platform is racist no matter what the response is? I honestly can't tell if you're on the windup or just having a different argument in your head.

I have had terrible periods my whole life - Puberty and menopause being particularly awful. To be honest I think I should get a medal, not be told to shut up.

what is phobic about believing people cannot change their sex? people can present with whatever gender identity they want but they cannot change sex and women have a right to single sex spaces?

what is phobic about believing that anyone born male and gone though male puberty will always be faster and stronger than a woman and therefore should not get to compete in women's sports no matter how they ientify?

what is phobic about believing that women in refuges have the right to be in a single sex space and a male bodied person no matter how they present does not belong alongside them but should have a space of their own?

what is phobic about believing that programmes designed to support and encourage women in the workplace should not be open to male bodied people no matter how they present?

It's very interesting that MRAs are so afraid of women talking amongst themselves about topics of concern to them that they continually mount such attacks on their most popular website.

If you build a movement on lies and deceit then you must be terrified all the time of being found out.

Women keep talking is all I can say. Slowly the tide is turning.

Or are you suggesting that because a disgusting racist might go and type racist things on a thread, the whole platform is racist no matter what the response is? I honestly can't tell if you're on the windup or just having a different argument in your head

There's a difference between the people who post racist stuff, and people who post transphobic on stuff here though.
There's a thread about a white woman threatening a black man running at the minute, there's some horrible comments on there.
The difference between the racist comments and the transphobic commenters though, is that the racist ones get challenged and they're not in the minority when they do so.
It's insiduous.
Transphobic comments, you get people actively egging each other on, scaremongering etc.

Campervan69, it's poor form to dismiss anyone who has concerns about transphobia as an 'MRA'. I am certainly not - I don't believe TWAW and have concerns about what that entails, and the behaviour of some parts of the trans lobby.

I still think too many posters on MN tip over way too easily into transphobic attitudes and language. I think that, unfortunately, MN's moderation stance has made it a bit of a repository for those types, and I think it's a problem.

So far today a few posters say "I've seen lots of transphobia on here but I can't be bothered to find evidence (sic)."

That just says to me that you cannot provide any evidence or that there is none. If you are going to argue that something is happening then you need to show proof.

Otherwise it's like me saying the grass is blue, okay prove it, nah can't be bothered. If you want to argue that there is transphobia on this site then the onus is on you to prove it. Stop being lazy and put your money where your mouth is.

I'm just flagging that I think (as do lots of other people) that MN has a problem with transphobic posters and posting. If others want to lobby against whatever website, that's up to them. Free speech innit

So is it free speech then or not.
Your ok with mumsnet being targeted for leaving transphobic posts still standing despite there being none, but Twitter can have videos of men fucking dogs and paedos in plain sight and that's aok