More bashing of mumsnet

[Ikeasucks]

Why are orgs and businesses just capitulating to this bullying? mobile.twitter.com/MForstater/status/1265201870437519360

I guess it's the age-old problem 'social progressives' (or in old terms, the 'intellectual vanguard') have:

They climb up through organisations supposedly representing the workers/people/women/whatever ...

... and are then profoundly disappointed when workers/women/whatever don't share their views.

You then have 2 options:

1. Exercise a bit of humility towards the people you are supposedly representing, and listen or

1. Double down, hard, and bully the fuck out of the people you are 'representing' (& paying your salary & giving you status) & silence dissent.

The GMB have gone for (2) - which is a bit of a shame.

Think some people (probably women) need to go read some different books.
Feminism is about women, only women, about making the world right for women.
If it was at all about men it would be called meninism.

Hth

I'm mostly a lurker but I like the Mumsnet Q&A sessions - you get lots of pointers and it gives you a broader understanding of things are impacting different people.

I just don't understand why GMB Union feels the need to not speak to Mumsnetters because some of them have gasps opinions.

Mumsnetters have a wide range of experiences and opinions and I, for one, like being challenged on things I think I know or opinions I have. I don't like some (loads) of the boards on Reddit and therefore I don't visit them. I don't call for Reddit to be banned or ask people not to advertise on it.

Reddit is owned by men and mostly used by men. Nobody would listen to you if you did.

Another vote here for 'Mumsnet has a definite transphobia problem'. The difficultly with proving this is that MN has, out of commercial necessity, got pretty good at deleting openly abusive posts and threads where the veil slips too far.

OK, here's the issue for me. What you call transphobia I call a belief in biological reality. It doesn't matter how much you scream at me that I'm a transphobe, or a bigot, or a bad person, or that I should be cancelled, or that I'm a bitch or a witch or a Terf or any of the other dozens of epithets that get slung at people like me all the time: I am never, ever going to believe that it's possible to change sex, any more than I am going to start believing that the earth is flat. You could probably make sure I didn't speak about it in public - by banning me, and people like me, from Twitter and Facebook and indeed Mumsnet - but you will never succeed in making me think that it's possible to change sex. And that, I realise, must be incredibly rage-inducing for the goons who have nothing better to do with their time than patrol the internet seeking out and punishing wrongthinkers.

Fantastic posts by @thecatfromjapan. Thank you for being so articulate

to host a bunch of controversial political dialogue that IS on the fringes of what is considered generally acceptable

Well yes, @Olliephaunt4eyes I think you’ve put your finger on it there.

Clearly it is deeply controversial and absolutely on the fringes of what is considered generally acceptable for biologically female people to want the right to boundaries that exclude all biologically male people; to want autonomy over their own lives.

Anyone would think we weren’t living under a patriarchy!

The idea that there are these biologically female people who actually think that they and their kind should be treated as full human beings and even have the same kinds of human rights as biologically male people is not just controversial and unacceptable but, quite frankly, shocking!

Thank you Olliephaunt for making your position so clear. The bottom line is that we must continue to prioritise the wishes and feelings of biologically male people ahead - far ahead! - of the wishes and feelings of biologically female people, because if we didn’t - well, god knows where we’d end up!

Fantastic posts by @thecatfromjapan. Thank you for being so articulate

Wholeheartedly agree!

Reddit is owned by men and mostly used by men. Nobody would listen to you if you did.

Spot on, OvaHere

No-one would mount a persistent campaign to have Reddit closed down because

-Reddit doesn't challenge male dominance
-Reddit has (related to the above) a fuck of a lot more of a secure foothold in social and economic power than Mumsnet.

The key strategy of all this anti-women shit - that purports to be 'feminism' - is that it exploits women's relative inequality and structural insecurity, whilst claiming it is attacking power.
The strategy - and the success of the strategy - makes visible the foundational mendacity.

You can't claim to be acting for the oppressed whilst using the actual facts of oppression/discrimination/lack of power to silence those you are naming as oppressors.

Go take the fight to those with real, actual power.

Because, otherwise, you are, in fact, doing the shitwork of the real boss class by undermining allies.

Frankly, this shit is why we have an actual Far-Right cartel in charge in the US and the U.K.

If anyone on this thread thinks that they are genuinely doing the work of true social justice and political empowerment by attaching Mumsnet, can I please ask you to stop, think - really think - about who, actually, has power right now.

And what did you do, today, to bring the fight to their door?

Clearly it is deeply controversial and absolutely on the fringes of what is considered generally acceptable for biologically female people to want the right to boundaries that exclude all biologically male people; to want autonomy over their own lives.

I know right - women asserting their boundaries with males eh? Definitely verging on unacceptable.

The key strategy of all this anti-women shit - that purports to be 'feminism' - is that it exploits women's relative inequality and structural insecurity, whilst claiming it is attacking power.
The strategy - and the success of the strategy - makes visible the foundational mendacity.

Wow, thecat, that is one of the most beautifully and accurately expressed paragraphs I have ever read - thank you!

Great post thecat you are 100% right about the power structures.

Targeting women and Mumsnet is such a lazy 'win' for misogynists who purport to be on the left.

OK, here's the issue for me. What you call transphobia I call a belief in biological reality. It doesn't matter how much you scream at me that I'm a transphobe, or a bigot, or a bad person, or that I should be cancelled, or that I'm a bitch or a witch or a Terf or any of the other dozens of epithets that get slung at people like me all the time: I am never, ever going to believe that it's possible to change sex, any more than I am going to start believing that the earth is flat. You could probably make sure I didn't speak about it in public - by banning me, and people like me, from Twitter and Facebook and indeed Mumsnet - but you will never succeed in making me think that it's possible to change sex. And that, I realise, must be incredibly rage-inducing for the goons who have nothing better to do with their time than patrol the internet seeking out and punishing wrongthinkers.

But the thing is, royacorgi, I agree with you on the fundamental issue. I don't think TWAW and I recognise that there's a legitimate discussion to be had about that.

But so much of what is posted around trans people is in the order of petty intolerance, belittling the problems they face, suggesting that they are all sex perverts etc etc. None of this shit adds anything to the discussion, and as I say, when the really nasty comments and language comes out, the post or thread gets deleted.

I recognise that MN does what it can to moderate but if a site unfortunately featured frequent sexist or racist posts and threads that had to be deleted, you'd say that that site had a racism or sexism problem. no?

You lot are unbelievable Yep! We are when you know full well that the makprity of that thread was disicussing the typo that led to the question being asked. It doidn't come ut of nowhere, there was a media piece hat referred to the female accused as he presumably based upon her surname. The thread then went on to discuss male pattern violence and some real transwomen whos crimes had nbeen listed as female crimes!

"Give us examples of transphobia! No not that one, that's made up. So find one that really is full of bile and hate. Not one discussing a journalistic error and % likelihood of the error being reflective of the truth. Some of the earliest responses point out the error of the OPs assumption!

That's just a screenshot. so, like Twitter Trolls it will lack context... and That's been deleted so it doesn't count." But it doesn't as we posters will have been the ones who reported it. Neither MNHQ nor the majority of GC posters let such shit stand.

You've been around long enough to know why, ot have seen the deliebrately provocatove threads where brand new posters post shit which gets screen shot as Twitter Proof!

Find something that in its full context shows fear and hate of trans people. That calls for any ill, hurt, damage to be done to them!

And then look for the same on Reddit

Then the opposite on Twitter... women hating, threats etc.

The first will be difficult the second two work of a couple of seconds.

Wonder why??

Apologies for my own typos...

There was a thread the other day where people were saying (incorrectly and with absolutely no basis beyond their own bigotry) that a woman who had committed a murder must be a trans woman because a "real woman" couldn't commit such a violent crime. If you can't see how disgustingly transphobic that is, then you have a problem. And that's just one example.

Having looked at the thread you linked to, @peachgreen, I would like to say I’m shocked about how wildly you misrepresented it - only I’m not.

People on that thread said no such thing. They questioned, on the basis of actual evidence which was referred to and provided on the thread, and on the basis of much experience of the same thing happening alarmingly frequently in the past few years, whether a recent crime reported as having been committed by a woman was in fact committed by a biologically male person identifying as a woman.

People actually said that women do occasionally commit very violent crimes too - but far, far fewer of them than men. Which is why accurate statistics particularly matter. Which is one reason why many women are getting fed up of having violent and sexual crime being reported as committed by “women” who turn out to be biologically male.

Your version of the thread only serves to highlight how very adept your mind is at distorting reality. Unsurprisingly.

I already pointed that out to peachgreen and they've conveniently ignored it so don't be shocked if you don't get an answer Talking

But so much of what is posted around trans people is in the order of petty intolerance, belittling the problems they face, suggesting that they are all sex perverts etc etc

Remove the word "trans" from that sentence and you've described aibu.

Same old, same old, Ova

the site has a serious transphobia problem.
No it doesn't.

Yes it does and any time anyone tries to engage with it the same old slogans are wheeled out.

And just to save time: no, there is no firm biological distinction between men and women, the existence of intersex people shows that quite clearly. Should you wish to continue ignoring the biological fact of the existence of intersex people but you can't pick and chose which biological facts fit your narrative best (unless you are the Catholic Church).

But so much of what is posted around trans people is in the order of petty intolerance, belittling the problems they face, suggesting that they are all sex perverts etc etc. None of this shit adds anything to the discussion, and as I say, when the really nasty comments and language comes out, the post or thread gets deleted.

Agree with this

How can there be intersex people if there are no sexes to be inter of?

And people with differences of sexual development are either male or female.

If I said 'trans people should curl up and die. They are awful' then quite rightly I'd get told that was transphobic.

Not once have I read that on mn.

Instead I see debate and adult discussions about the implications of allowing self id and so on.
Every single trans person has the right to present how they prefer. Same as women and girls have the right to protest when their single sex spaces have safeguarding and dignity issues.

no, there is no firm biological distinction between men and women

Bless! Has anyone ever explained to you how babies are made, @Booboostwo?