More bashing of mumsnet

[Ikeasucks]

Why are orgs and businesses just capitulating to this bullying? mobile.twitter.com/MForstater/status/1265201870437519360

Whataloadofshite

calling trans women men in dresses

“Men in dresses” can refer to:
• men in dresses, e.g. Grayson Perry
• transsexuals who call themselves men in dresses
• cross dressers who, by the definition under Stonewall’s umbrella would be considered transgender but not a transwoman.

So can you explain what you mean: are you saying it is used as a slur? Can you give an example.

If you’re saying

The feminism section is filled with it

then it will be easy to find an example. Here is the link:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights

Either way, MN was called out and obviously the truth hurts

You see, this is what’s vindictive about it. The only people who have been hurt in this scenario are the women who went to the effort of posting their employment issues on the GMB thread and now won’t get the support that was offered. So when you say “truth hurts” what you mean is people are pissed off women have been left in the lurch like that. Is that something you think is appropriate? That those women be punished because of this “HUGE transphobia” problem you perceive?

You know, I'm not even on Mumsnet for trans issues.

I'm here for education and Brexit.

Why?

Because Mumsnet has always been a site to find out what a huge range of women think about various issues.

And - right now, in a pandemic, where opportunities to find out about women's experiences and different views are actually, really, stunningly limited - it's invaluable.

Trans issues are a teeny, weeny, tiny part of Mumsnet.

People seeking to reduce the site to that, to trash the site because of that, to go on about an huge transphobia problem' are, frankly, deluded utterly myopic, and have reality-filters over their eyes.

I still can't get over the absolute, privileged foolishness of GMB to place this one issue over a need - a real need - to engage with women in one of the few places during this crisis that they actually can engage with women.

And saying that Mumsnet has a 'huge' problem with transphobia?

Wake up.

There are hundreds of threads where the subject isn't raised.

Hundreds.

And those other threads are, frankly, politically important.

Especially for unions.

The GMB is the union of many of the support staff in schools, for a start.

The GMB needs to be listening to what patents are saying on here, and thinking about how to adjust campaigns and messaging.

It needs to be reaching out.

I'm actually now beyond tired of the way the progressive left have labelled Mumsnet as a 'will not engage' site.

It's ridiculous and deeply harmful. It's just pragmatically foolish. And, right now, when communication and outreach is extremely hard, it's a self-inflicted wound.

Who, exactly, dominates the information networks at the moment?

Is the mainstream bending over backwards to accommodate the voice of the GMB?

No. Of course not.

So why, for the love of all that's holy, would you consider yourself so endowed with a plenitude of opportunities to connect with a group you are struggling to reach, turn down a site where those women actually, voluntarily gather?

I'm not even on Mumsnet for trans issues

Neither am I: I'm here for women's issues . It just so happens that having the word "woman" redefined and our spaces and services opened up to male people is a major issue right now, because you can't have women's rights if you can't define "woman".

I started in FWR but I've gone into other parts of the board since. I'm amazed by the support that Mumsnet gives to abuse victims, especially during this lockdown. The most important thread I've been on was the AIBU where the OP wanred know if she could leave her abuser during lockdown and we all said "yes, Penny Mordaunt said you could, now go go go" and she was safely out within 24h. My heart was in my mouth that day hoping that she would make it.

When narcissistic males try to hurt the site because they don't like FWR, they risk that amazing support for abuse victims, some of which is provided by FWR posters. Abusive males are going to abuse and shutting down women's ability to support each other and debate ideas and organise is a method of abusing us.

...well THAT didn't take long.

Whataloadofshite

I’m sorry you think it’s funny that women have lost the opportunity to discuss their employment issues because of people having a juvenile tantrum on Twitter. I feel sorry for you if you think that’s a good, worthwhile outcome that deserves a laugh. Can’t be a nice existence for you. In the meantime, perhaps you could enlighten us with those horrible offensive posts that you think justify your enjoyment in women’s misfortune. At least you could justify your schadenfreude.

For those who are asking for evidence that transphobia exists, please see @bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg last post . Transphobia (as with any phobia) literally means fear of trans people. @bd67th just acknowledged she has that fear. She explained that it comes from some (undoubtedly disgusting and intolerable) violent comments made online by one(/ a few?) trans women. Obviously those comments are horrific and inexcusable. However they do not justify fear of, and prejudice against , trans people as a group.

She has a fear (statistically grounded) of MALES of any gender, including transwomen.

People should remember that most females have no fear of transmen , supporting the position that it is someone's maleness not their gender identity that is causing the response

So on this page, we’ve established the accusation of transphobia can also stem from poor comprehension skills.

Exactly.

If people want to demonise, mock and trivilialize the very real trauma many women face at the hands of males, then that's up to them, but fear of males, regardless of gender identity, is not transphobia.

So you are saying the PP I referenced can’t be transphobic because trans women don’t exist? (Her fear of trans women is just a fear of men). Interesting. How would one be transphobic/ express transphobic ideas in that case?

Also I’d like to add that the explicitly said she was afraid of the ‘movement’. So let me get this straight: trans women don’t exist, being trans is a ‘movement’, and she’s afraid of it, but nothing about any of this is transphobic?

I don’t want to get dragged into this further as it’s clear it won’t lead anywhere good, life is too short, and I am too tired, but... it’s ridiculous to deny the existence / legitimacy of a group of people and then claim you are not prejudiced against them.

I’m sorry you think it’s funny that women have lost the opportunity to discuss their employment issues because of people having a juvenile tantrum on Twitter. I feel sorry for you if you think that’s a good, worthwhile outcome that deserves a laugh.

YY. It really is quite telling. Nice of the poster to choose such an apt username too.

whataloadofshite
Once again
If you genuinely think people on FWR are saying that "there are only two genders" then you've either not read or not understood what has been posted.

To insist "this is the truth" is wrong, and this is why we ask for evidence to back up claims of transphobia, because otherwise it's misunderstood impressions of what they thought they read. Ditto the "men in dresses" which I addressed earlier in the thread.

She has a fear (statistically grounded) of MALES of any gender, including transwomen.

Not sure what element of this is particularly difficult to grasp for some people?

don’t want to get dragged into this further as it’s clear it won’t lead anywhere good, life is too short, and I am too tired, but... it’s ridiculous to deny the existence / legitimacy of a group of people

She's saying she doesn't share their ideological belief that it's possible for a male person to have a female brain, with all the things they think are "rights" based on that. She doesn't think these people don't exist or are inferior. She doesn't think they shouldn't have the basic human rights we share. She simply regards them as male. Not sure, as I said, why you're not getting this. Is there any way this can be broken down for you? Here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Also I’d like to add that the explicitly said she was afraid of the ‘movement’. So let me get this straight: trans women don’t exist, being trans is a ‘movement’, and she’s afraid of it, but nothing about any of this is transphobic?

No one said transwomen don’t exist. They are males. They identify as women. They exist. Do you deny they are males? And what was said about “movement” wasn’t that “trans” is a movement. What was written was:

So we have a movement whose extremists think that it isn't rape to force a woman, any woman not just the terven witches, into sex because she has "cis privilege"; who think women they disagree with who've been raped should not be believed; who openly advocate that women they disagree with should be "violate[d] any way you want" (how is that not a euphemism for rape?); and who think that harassment, doxxing, and physical violence towards women they disagree with is OK

There is some people who advocate for these things. Do you agree with this sort of movement? Pointing out that within the community of people who identify as trans there is a movement of violent males aggressively campaigning to harm women is not transphobic.

To most people...

@Ereshkigalangcleg so how would one express transphobia specifically against trans women in that case? Or is transphobia just not a thing in your view?

Why are you desperately seeking for ways to call women here transphobic? I'd say that transphobia means thinking that trans people should be locked up, or killed, or lose their jobs, or are all sexual predators.

That is categorically not what people here think. The fact is that some of them are sexual predators, like some other males are sexual predators. Women are right to be cautious of strange males. How do you suggest we tell the difference?

Can there ever be a phobia of trans women specifically as a group in your view , and if so , how would that be expressed?

Is that a cross post? I've just described it.

I'd say that transphobia means thinking that trans people should be locked up, or killed, or lose their jobs, or are all sexual predators

To me this would be the extreme (genocidal) end of transphobia.

Do you think it’s possible to be racist or sexist , for example, without thinking that all POC or women should be locked up , killed, lose their jobs etc?

Yes sorry it was a cross post

To me this would be the extreme (genocidal) end of transphobia.

Why don't you tell us what you think is transphobia and people can tell you whether they agree or disagree?

Bizawit

It’s like your trying to goad people into saying transphobia doesn’t exist. Of course it exists. Genuine transphobia where people are hurt, killed, or discriminated against just because they are trans is abhorrent.

But your, mine, posters here, Twitter, trans people themselves, all seem to have a different interpretation of events and ideas around trans and the impact on women’s rights and children that are open to discussion. To some, that’s a valuable discussion. To others, to question is transphobic.

But given there are areas that are open to discussion, it begs the question yet again is that enough to warrant removal of the opportunity for women to discuss their employment rights?

And I don't see trans people as a uniquely oppressed group, I think a lot of "transphobia" is actually misdirected homophobia. I don't think it's "transphobia" for women not to believe in the ideological worldview of gender identity ideology, just like I don't think it's a phobia of Christians to think that the Bible is a work of fiction.