More bashing of mumsnet

[Ikeasucks]

Why are orgs and businesses just capitulating to this bullying? mobile.twitter.com/MForstater/status/1265201870437519360

Why don't you think that "strength" issue also applies to female spaces, for our protection, suggestionsplease? And why don't you think females have the right to spaces separate from males?

@Ereshkigalangcleg - I have never posted about any trans activists that I admire, so I'm not sure what you are alluding to with this comment

You should check out what some of the trans activists you admire actually think about the "lady brain".

borntohula your transphobia is showing. Either a trans man is a man, which is fine, or you misgendered a trans woman

BornToHula clarified meant trans woman

I don't think transphobia is any more endemic that racism and ageism , and I don't believe there is more transphobia here than in general society, and I don't believe that transphobes have identified this site as a safe space for their views

Hmm.. I would've said it's more so than racism but there have been a few really racist threads on here recently that have me doubting that.

I don't think that transphobes have identified this site as a safe space for their views either, but I do think the eagerness of gender-critical feminists to protest that there is no transphobia here gives transphobes the courage to say things they wouldn't elsewhere.

@suggestionsplease1, first of all, thanks for replying to my earlier post and describing your friend. I'm sorry that she feels the way she does. So much of it is the result of gender stereotyping, which I feel is absolutely toxic.

You're right, of course, that social attitudes change over time, but not normally as fast as this. I am genuinely bemused as it was years into this before I noticed it was even happening and I'm sure I'm not alone. And while I was asleep politicians, journalists, the police, teachers, doctors, psychologists, social workers and academics all started saying things like 'sex is a spectrum', 'sex was invented by white colonisers', 'genital preferences are transphobic', 'transwomen are women, transmen are men' and here we are now.

I acknowledge the real disparity that can exist in strength and athleticism by growing up in a male body and that needs serious consideration in sporting competitions.

See, I think I agree with this. What I can't be done with is a 40-page fucking thread of people berating a trans woman for having an 'F' against her name in her Parkrun results. It's the very definition of petty intolerance, and the thread probably still stands if people can be arsed to dig it out.

Nothing to do with "shut the mummies up, can't they talk about prams etc?"

It literally is that with some of the comments, if you ever bothered to find out about what you're talking about.

again @Ereshkigalangcleg, I must ask you to stop posting as if I have expressed views that I have not. Surely that goes against Mumsnet guidelines?

Why don't you think that "strength" issue also applies to female spaces, for our protection, suggestionsplease? And why don't you think females have the right to spaces separate from males?

Female spaces exist to ensure that women can participate fully in society

Nothing to do with perceived or actual risks from others

Just what ensures women are not excluded

Women focussed , kind of Strange I know, probably why we get side tracked so easily

So if shared changing rooms put women off, then that facility is failing to uphold the equality act

Oh God the Park Run thread
Don't think that's still here unless there's another one

See, I think I agree with this.

Which again, would be considered transphobic by those monitoring the site for transgressions.

These are the type of statements that the TRAs are using as their 'proof' of transphobia.

@popehilarious yeah... except it was just a mistake.

Ok so you do think women and girls have the right to spaces without males! Glad to hear it, shame you avoided confirming that when you made special pleading for the sports issue.

I have never posted about any trans activists that I admire

No, but I'd be fascinated to know how you learned trans activist talking points without listening to any trans activists.

^See, I think I agree with this.

Which again, would be considered transphobic by those monitoring the site for transgressions.

These are the type of statements that the TRAs are using as their 'proof' of transphobia.^

Fucking hell, is it not possible to have a grown-up conversation without the point-scoring and sticking the boot in?

My point is that you can adopt a broadly gender-critical position and still feel that there is some (frankly too much) stuff on this site that is intolerant and uncool.

You don't seriously think I'm a transphobe, do you, because I'm quite hurt by the suggestion?

This site has a serious problem with MRAs

MRAs were campaigning against Mumsnet long before this trans stuff started. Fathers for Justice types.

But the thing is, royacorgi, I agree with you on the fundamental issue. I don't think TWAW and I recognise that there's a legitimate discussion to be had about that.

I’d be interested in having that legitimate discussion, @thedancingbear. What exactly are your beliefs/thoughts around all this if you don’t think that TWAW?

Despite not thinking they’re women, do you nonetheless think TW should be able to access women’s single sex spaces, for example? Compete in women’s sport? Etc, etc. And if so, how do you decide exactly which biologically male people are entitled to be seen as TW and therefore qualify for this access?

Really interested to hear your thoughts.

And of course you are presumably aware that saying you don’t think TWAW instantly qualifies you as a huge transphobic bigot according to Stonewall et al? So your post itself could logically be picked up by a transactivist as “proof” of “transphobia” on MN?

I think you're a man telling women what to do, like we don't have enough of those, thedancingbear. Don't be surprised if we don't immediately jump to it. Or completely don't remotely give a shit what you think about anything.

I dont think you're a transphobe, no. But I am just illustrating the point that things that seem perfectly reasonable to you are considered to be the 'transphobic content' that led to MN being accused of being a hate site.

Saying that you dont believe TW to be women is considered highly transphobic and literal violence by our monitors and yet you are hurt by the suggestion that you are a transphobe for saying it. Just be glad you arent at the receiving end of actual TRA invective for daring to say TW arent women...

See, I think I agree with this. What I can't be done with is a 40-page fucking thread of people berating a trans woman for having an 'F' against her name in her Parkrun results. It's the very definition of petty intolerance, and the thread probably still stands if people can be arsed to dig it out.

See, I think that is just the thin end of the wedge. That thread was a couple of years ago now and since then huge areas of women's competitive sports have been wrecked - records, medals, prizes and sponsorships appropriated away from the female athletes they were meant for.

If we found that thread now it would probably full of people saying 'that will never happen'

It really pisses me off that thread is being held up as "TRANSPHOBIA". It was perfectly reasonable for women to object.

borntohula it might have been a mistake, but it was still transphobic - as I'm sure you'll know. I have seen accounts from trans women who say they find such mistakes hurtful. But sure, minimise it if you like.

What the parkrun thread highlighted to me was that

If sex isn't important, don't collect that information

Makes it automatically more exclusive

The system made people register as Male or female, it gave results by Male or female groups and the we all were surprised that people were using that information and wondered why people wanted might want that to be accurate

Otherwise women might feel like they were being literally erased

Just rebrand it as Mansnet.

INCLUSIVE

Sorry!

If sex isn't important, don't collect that information

Exactly. Don't collect false biological information to validate people in their identity issues.