More bashing of mumsnet

[Ikeasucks]

Why are orgs and businesses just capitulating to this bullying? mobile.twitter.com/MForstater/status/1265201870437519360

Explain to me how it is transphobic then. I'm all ears.

Sam's constant attention seeking narcissistic persona.

This is interesting, because attention-seeking and narcissism are accusations often levelled at gay men by homophobes.

Well said @Witchcraftandhokum

That is just such nonsense
Why does it have to be either or
It is perfectly OK to have a problem with BOTH scenarios, who in their right mind would think what you said about Twitter is OK
Of course it bloomin' isn't, that's sick and twisted and shouldn't be allowed

Yet I see no campaign to stop it, to make Twitter more accountable, to ban those tweeters, to prevent the worst abuses on that platform.
Could it be misogyny? We on mumsnet are women, therefore be nice, MAPs on Twitter are men so they can do what the hell they like? The dog fucking was done by a man so hey whatevs

I think in MSM I've seen one piece about the utter shit on Twitter. It got no comments, no thumbs up, nothing.

@Witchcraftandhokum

Great post

Here's another thing I don't understand. Ten years ago if a public figure (or anyone) had tried to insist that other people should refer to them as 'they/them' rather than 'he/him' or 'she/her', people would have been bemused. Next to nobody would have felt compelled to do it. What changed?

None of us over the age of 25 (at most) grew up believing people could be born in the wrong body. What changed?

It used to be regarded as absolutely self-evident that women and girls (and young children) need the safety and privacy of sex-segregated spaces and women should have separate sporting competitions. Now we see a huge pushback on this. What changed?

It also used to be accepted by most people that sexism exists and it's a consequence of being female (or, in a few cases, male) and that biological sex was in almost all cases completely clear and fixed. Now there's pushback on that too. What changed?

Sam Smith isn't trans. Sticking some glitter on your face and using plural pronouns isn't trans.

Which kind of highlights some of the issues at play. 'Trans' and 'transphobia' have become such huge umbrella terms practically everyone on the planet who isn't a walking Barbie or Action Man caricature could reasonably fall under the vast definition.

But do all you saying that MN is a transphobic site accept that you are also transphobes?

Statements like 'people cant change sex' and 'I dont believe TWAW' are all part of the overriding 'MN is transphobic' narrative.

I am glad to see that you are happy to claim "ah its transphobia if we say so"

But are totally unwilling to acknowledge the misogyny that is regularly displayed by those who accuse women of transphobia.

refusal to acknowledge the impact that sex has on women's lives , refusal to accept that sex is a different construct to gender is pure misogyny

This is interesting, because attention-seeking and narcissism are accusations often levelled at gay men by homophobes.

Must someone be beyond criticism because they are gay? I know some lovely gay people and I know some really horrible gay people. Just like I know some really lovely straight people and some really horrible ones.

It seems a bit homophobic to me to suggest that gay people should be held to different standards to straight people.

Regular FWR posters are on that Sam Smith thread saying they don't think being asked to be referred to as "they" is a problem.
Any thread about individuals in the public eye become horrible pile ons for all reasons. I do disagree with this.

If you think you can defuse any allegation of transphobia by shouting 'that's not transphobic' then there's no discussion to be had.

I could say the same to your view. If you keep saying generic statements that there is transphobia and then not back it up or even explain why you think it is transphobic, then why should others believe you.

This is interesting, because attention-seeking and narcissism are accusations often levelled at gay men by homophobes.

Hold on a sec, I thought the argument was that Sam Smith doesn't identify as a man. Are you saying he is now? Isn't that transphobia by the definitions being argued up thread.

It seems a bit homophobic to me to suggest that gay people should be held to different standards to straight people.

Completely agree. It's a normal human characteristic to notice differences between people. Problems arise if you then treat people differently because of those differences in a way that isn't justified, e.g. women only getting promoted if they're exceptional while men can get promotions while being only average, black people getting arrested more than white people for the same behaviour.

Saying that TW arent women is transphobia 101 and yet they think they can lecture the rest of us on transphobia. Do me a favour

I don't think that transwomen, especially self identified transwomen, should be automatically entitled to use resources allocated to females

I don't thing transwomen should automatically be allocated to a female prison / hospital ward / open plan changing room

I'd like to understand if it's fair for transwomen to compete as a female in sport

The funny thing is I don't think any of those statements are inherently transphobic and I agree with all of them.... but I STILL think transphobia is rife on mumsnet!

Haven't rtft but I saw a comment on here recently referring to a trans man as 'a man in a dress' and other similar ones. I'd say that was transphobic.

Here's another thing I don't understand. Ten years ago if a public figure (or anyone) had tried to insist that other people should refer to them as 'they/them' rather than 'he/him' or 'she/her', people would have been bemused. Next to nobody would have felt compelled to do it. What changed?

None of us over the age of 25 (at most) grew up believing people could be born in the wrong body. What changed?*

You could substitute a lot of different exemplars in there....400 years ago a public figure suggesting slavery should be abolished would be met with bemusement...250 years ago a public figure suggesting women have equal intellectual faculties to men would be met with bemusement...

What's changed? Time has changed.

I presume you mean 'woman' borntohula

But horse, they are the only specific examples I could get out of anyone

I don't think transphobia is any more endemic that racism and ageism , and I don't believe there is more transphobia here than in general society, and I don't believe that transphobes have identified this site as a safe space for their views

And I see no evidence to support any of those

@OvaHere yes, trans woman* is what I meant.

You could substitute a lot of different exemplars in there....400 years ago a public figure suggesting slavery should be abolished would be met with bemusement...250 years ago a public figure suggesting women have equal intellectual faculties to men would be met with bemusement...

What's changed? Time has changed.

It hasn't changed that much. Slavery still exists and people still think women don't have equal intellectual faculties to men still exist. You should check out what some of the trans activists you admire actually think about the "lady brain".

borntohula your transphobia is showing. Either a trans man is a man, which is fine, or you misgendered a trans woman.

It used to be regarded as absolutely self-evident that women and girls (and young children) need the safety and privacy of sex-segregated spaces and women should have separate sporting competitions. Now we see a huge pushback on this. What changed?

I don't disagree with this entirely myself, I acknowledge the real disparity that can exist in strength and athleticism by growing up in a male body and that needs serious consideration in sporting competitions.

It's so shit that general female discussion about anything is so under threat.

If this gets much worse let's make the site private with a membership fee we can donate to womens aid or similar