Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Flip

1 2 ··· 7 8 9 ··· 15 16

Original poster

Child left for 45 mins in own poo??

388 replies

ShallallalAa · 23/05/2020 12:05

My dc aged 4 was left for 45 mins at school having pooed herself (I am a first response worker BTW and dp was 2 hours away)
She was left in the loo covered in her own poo. I left immediately and got there and left colleagues on the ward.
Should she have been changed or helped to clean herself up by a staff member?
She was extremely distressed by the time I got there.

OP posts:

SandieCheeks · 23/05/2020 15:44

@LemonPudding even small schools need to have enough staff to deal with a child soiling themselves, vomitting, having an asthma attack or a seizure (or the teacher becoming ill). They can't just say "we don't have the staff".

Presumably someone other than the class teacher was available to call the OP so they clearly do have spare staff.

LolaSmiles · 23/05/2020 15:46

SandieCheeks
I agree they should have the staff.

But someone able to call home doesn't equal enough staff to perform intimate care and supervise the group.

SandieCheeks · 23/05/2020 15:47

@LolaSmiles why wouldn't the person capable of phoning home be capable of supervising 8 other children for 10 minutes while the teacher helped a 4 year old get changed?

Shouldnthavedoneitthen · 23/05/2020 15:59

That is disgusting, your poor DD. I know teachers are ‘hero’s’ at the moment but no, this is plain wrong.
Any person, let alone someone who works in a setting with children, who can leave a child distressed like that with no compassion or help should not be working there.

LolaSmiles · 23/05/2020 16:01

why wouldn't the person capable of phoning home be capable of supervising 8 other children for 10 minutes while the teacher helped a 4 year old get changed?
Because most safeguarding policies and intimate care policies require two adults of the same sex to safeguard the child and the adults.

SandieCheeks · 23/05/2020 16:05

@LolaSmiles if the school doesn't have enough staff to fulfil their own policies, then clearly they either need to change their policies or employ more staff.
The answer is not just to shrug and leave a soiled child.

HoppingPavlova · 23/05/2020 16:07

*@HoppingPavlova you are ignorant of the rules.^

No, cjm10979, you are ignorant of our rules. I’m not in the UK so quoting what you did at me and calling me ignorant doesn’t work. If you read my post properly I said ‘where we are’ etc. So your quoted guidance does not apply and hasn’t for over 20 years that I’ve had kids in school here.

nokidshere · 23/05/2020 16:08

Because most safeguarding policies and intimate care policies require two adults of the same sex to safeguard the child and the adults.

You can only have a policy if it's one you can adhere to, if at some point that changes then the policy must change also in order for it to work. If you don't have the staff then the policy shouldn't be written for two people to be available. If you have to amend your policy because you don't have two same sex staff available for instance (and let's face it many primary schools don't have two male staff) then it needs to be amended to something workable.

A policy is a document showing how you are going to do things, not something set in stone forevermore.

LolaSmiles · 23/05/2020 16:11

if the school doesn't have enough staff to fulfil their own policies, then clearly they either need to change their policies or employ more staff.
The answer is not just to shrug and leave a soiled child.

You see the bit in my first reply where I said they should have enough staff? What part of that possibly means I think it's fine to leave a soiled child?

You see my replies to the OP where I've outlined things I'd be complaining about? What part of that means I think it's acceptable to leave a soiled child?

Challenging the idea that if there's an adult to call home then another adult should change a child on their own doesn't equal thinking it's fine to leave a soiled child.

LolaSmiles · 23/05/2020 16:13

nokidshere
I'd agree.

However that's irrelevant to my explanation to another poster about why having one adult to call home whilst another supervises a group doesn't equal enough adults to safely provide intimate care.

Kez0777 · 23/05/2020 16:23

I'm so sorry this happened to your daughter.
Those saying the teacher couldn't have left the class what if she had needed first aid treatment? There must be someone spare on site to deal with things. I am an TA and been working in my school the whole time and I would never have left a child like this. Just like I wouldn't have left her if she'd had a nose bleed or hurt herself.
No there isn't ppa but we are told to clean our hands more and there would be gloves (covid or not!) to help children deal with these situations.
I hope she's ok and it didn't upset her too much. Have you spoken to her about it? I know she's only 4, but so she's aware she did nothing wrong and having accidents are ok. She can't feel worried about this happening again

Elieza · 23/05/2020 16:26

OP you advised “She has soiled herself, become distressed and didn't come out because she was so upset. Teacher was aware. No prebious issues“

Do you know if the teacher asked if she wanted help? She refused to come out so she may also have refused help because she was embarrassed? What actually happened.

There are too many things we don’t know the answer to in order to give advice.

Please post back when you have more info from the school next week, like their policy during CV outbreak, their PPE situation if expected to clean children up (do they have enough/correct stuff and are staff trained to use), how they knew it was 45 mins, at what point did they phone you (when did they notice she was missing, did they check on her and she said she was ok when she wasn’t out of embarrassment, were you phoned within our outwith the 45mins), is there any paperwork you should have been told about that you needed to complete for consent or anything?

Hopefully once you get to the bottom of it you can consider what course of action is right for you.

Pineapple1 · 23/05/2020 16:33

My wife's a reception teacher.

Her school policy states that teachers are not to do it. The TAs are given that responsibility. If the teacher is forced onto the position of being alone, then they are to give verbal directions and not to touch the students.
Doing so opens up accusations of safeguarding breaches. So to protect themselves and the establishment the policy's are to be followed.

Sorry people... But nothing wrong happend here.

partystress · 23/05/2020 16:48

Very sorry for your DD OP. That's a horrible thing to go through and we don't know why it happened.

But, there will be a lot more of it if schools open to more children from 1 June in the way the government is demanding. They KNOW there will be groups of very young children with just a single TA in charge and they KNOW there will be restrictions on access to toilets because that is what they have instructed schools to do: bring the youngest children back first and separate into bubbles that don't mix. They have also emphasised that any qualified teacher is qualified to teach in early years. So expect more situations like this as staff from upper KS2 who have never had to deal with an accident wonder what the heck they are supposed to do.

While they also wonder whether they really have to deal with it with no PPE at all because there is none to be had apart from the one emergency set in the medical room for when a child displays CV symptoms and needs intimate care.

Original poster

ShallallalAa · 23/05/2020 17:06

I think that is so bad for childrens mental and really sad.

OP posts:

IckyIsAFuckingStupidWord · 23/05/2020 17:13

So your quoted guidance does not apply

Well then nor does yours if you are not in the UK so there’s no need to push your replies as fact when they’re not relevant to UK schools.

Spillinteas · 23/05/2020 17:26

I struggle to believe an adult knew a four year old child had soiled her self and couldn’t get out of the toilets to either - being scared/upset/unable to clean her self up and yet just left her. It’s just horrible.

Can you imagine if it was -

An adult with SN soiled themselves in the toilet and their career refused to help them for 45 minutes.

I’m sure there would pretty much be an investigation and that career being fired for negligent behaviour.

If there is a policy somewhere that states that the career/teacher must stand from a distance and give instructions to the child then the policy maker is an idiot and so are the career/teacher for following it

LolaSmiles · 23/05/2020 17:26

I agree OP
It's those sorts of issues that many staff are concerned about. When teachers and school leaders are saying they have concerns about making school safe for children toileting and hand washing, appropriate staffing are all part of it.

Sadly there's a narrative of 'don't complain and get the children through the doors' in some places and it wouldn't surprise me if there are more issues like this after half term. It's bad all round.

ACauliflowerAndARose · 23/05/2020 17:33

That is terrible OP - so sorry to hear that this happened

nokidshere · 23/05/2020 17:43

@Pineapple1 The TAs are given that responsibility. That's not a problem as long as there is a TA there.

If the teacher is forced onto the position of being alone, then they are to give verbal directions and not to touch the students. So it's ok for the TA to touch them but not the teacher?

Doing so opens up accusations of safeguarding breaches. So to protect themselves and the establishment the policy's are to be followed. So again, it's ok for the TA to be open to accusations but not the teacher?

There is absolutely no safeguarding breach in helping a child in the bathroom. It's no wonder our children are more stressed and anxious than they have ever been.

grumpyorange · 23/05/2020 18:00

OP why haven't you just asked the school? Why moan about it when you aren't sure of the circumstances. Your story changed already from they didn't do anything to she wouldn't come out the toilet. What did you want them to do break the door down?

If you DC had then said they forced me to take off my pants would you also be complaining?

LolaSmiles · 23/05/2020 18:19

To be fair to the OP they are asking what would be reasonable and they've also been open to the fact that schools will have intimate care and safeguarding policies. She hasn't talked about storming in or anything unreasonable and is looking for more information to raise with the school.

I'm more concerned with the number of posters who think adults should undress a child on their own and go near a child's genitals without appropriate safeguards for the child and the adult.

LemonPudding · 23/05/2020 18:24

@LemonPudding even small schools need to have enough staff to deal with a child soiling themselves, vomitting, having an asthma attack or a seizure (or the teacher becoming ill). They can't just say "we don't have the staff".

Many country schools just don't. In a real emergency they take 2 classes into the hall and one teacher supervises. The other deals with the emergency.

par05 · 23/05/2020 18:29

My son pooped himself when he was 4 in school and the teacher rang me, and helped clean him up, gave him extra clothes that are kept in school for these type of accidents, and I only live and work 5 mins away from the school.

Canadianpancake · 23/05/2020 18:32

It's written in to our current study assessment and has been made very clear to parents that if a child soiks themselves a parent will be called to come and get them. No member of staff is to provide personal care.

I don't think the school have done anything wrong here, they are protecting their staff.

Flip

1 2 ··· 7 8 9 ··· 15 16