Would you carry on letting grandparents see child after this?

[Slidetotheleft]

DD's (5) father disappeared off the face of the earth 12 months ago. Has paid no maintenance since then. Currently owes over 3k and counting.

DDs grandparents (his parents) know where he is but refuse to tell me. Their argument is that he is trying to rebuild his business/life and cannot do that with the maintenance people on his back. He hasn't even sent DD a birthday card or anything at xmas. The maintenance people cannot find him, his parents know where he is but refuse to tell me and if DD asks them they say they don't know (not sure how long they can carry that on for).

They are currently still seeing DD twice a month (not during lockdown). And speak to her once a week on the phone.

My question is WIBU to say actually whilst you cannot be honest with me or DD I don't want her in your care. I DO NOT want to do this, DD enjoys their company and they love seeing her.

But it really really gets to me that they are happy to see her go without the support she deserves and to actually lie to her face when she asks where her daddy is.

What would you do?

Why punish your daughter? She loves,being with them and like you said she's already lost her dad. I don't agree with them for keeping dad's address a secret but he's their child and let's face it most of us will do anything for our children.

I don’t think he’s going to be in contact whilst they are doing this. They are going to be feeding things back to him and pictures etc so he’s gonna be keeping up to date on her so he will have no need to contact you.
I’d reply the same as pp said on the first page, say the same back to them and cut them off. They aren’t putting her best interests first. You can always review it after lockdown but at the moment I’d stop contact because they are enabling it and lying to her

I don't think it's a difficult decision at all. These people are disgusting and they spawned a disgusting son.

There's no way I would enable my child to have a relationship with people who lack basic morals. She may miss them initially but it's your job to do what's in her best interests and these people clearly don't have her best interests at heart. She will think you were a weak fool when she grows up and realises.

You can do a search for his name as a director for free at Companies House rather than pay through a credit reference agency, though may not be any use if he’s hiding.
I would also be aware that the longer this goes on and the more regular the relationship the more likely the GPS would be in winning a court case that they had an established right to see her and you had to allow contact.

It’s tough OP, I feel for you. I’d be minded to say to them that his hiding and not contributing means your daughter is going without and thinks she has been abandoned by her dad- a double whammy- & that you are no longer willing to facilitate that pain. It also worth bearing in mind the impact on your mental health, which has to be good as you are the only person looking after DD. Put all that across in a calm fashion (by email or text) and say given lockdown you are reconsidering how you and DD will live in the future, and if they continue to lie to both you and their grand daughter you will have to consider whether the relationship continues to be in her best interests, and with that in mind do they want to continue being dishonest? If they do, it’s their choice, and you can leave them behind knowing they really didn’t have your daughters best interests at heart.

Good luck & take care.

I would cease contact OP. You have to be able to trust anyone you leave your child with. By assisting their son in shirking his responsibilities to provide for his daughter, they have demonstrated that they don't have her best interests at heart.

If it was me, I wouldn't have trust in them to care for her properly when you're not there. If they are happy to see her go without financially, can you trust them to look after her?

Although very unlikely, there is always a risk that they would let their feckless son see her at some point in the future, without your knowledge.

I suspect ex may have gone abroad. If he was in prison, I would support them not telling DD, but no reason why they couldn't tell you. Perhaps they are afraid that if they tell you where he is, that you will tell the people after him for money where he is?

Their lies force you to lie to DD too, or risk upsetting her by telling her the truth - that Grandma and Grandad know where Daddy is but won't tell us. I'd keep her as far away from that, and them, as possible.

I don't agree with them for keeping dad's address a secret but he's their child and let's face it most of us will do anything for our children.

Really? Would you cover for your adult son who abandoned his child? I would be thoroghly ashamed and would delight in making him pay for his mistakes. By covering for him they are just as complicit in reducing their granddaughters quality of life and the opportunities available to her. What if OP ever gets sick or can't provide for her daughter. If they end up in poverty it will be partly the grandparents fault. Shocking that anyone would think it's a good thing to facilitate this relationship.

The grandparents may well be thinking what if we go against our son and he cuts contact, then Slidetotheleft stops contact/moves away with DGD, we'll lose everyone?

If DD's dad is such a shit to not even send a Christmas card and is building a business then even if CMS do catch up with him any maintenance they drag out of him will be minimal. The GPs will know this and probably think it's not worth rocking the boat for a paltry amount.

I don't condone their stance but if DD enjoys visiting them then her needs should come first. They're not terrible people for having divided loyalties in an extremely tough situation. Ca you imagine if we all had to limit contact with everyone who displayed morally questionable behaviours (abuse aside)? Ultimately this shitty situation is your ex's to own, not his parents'.

Your DD's relationship with her GPs is a positive one. They are loving towards her and go along to school events. For those reasons, it seems to me that it's in her best interests to continue to see them.

However. If not enabling their son (as he sounds as though he's perfectly capable of going his own unsweet way without any help), they are certainly making excuses for behaviour which is completely inexcusable.

I suspect that they are perturbed by what he's done underneath it all - the taking down of his photos is a sign that this might be the case. So a few home truths from you might make them think harder.

I would be making it crystal clear to them just how badly their son has let your DD down and that their vague statements about him trying to rebuild his finances do NOT explain anything. That their behaviour risks their longer-term relationship with their DD as one day, when she's older, she will understand what's happening. That under the current circumstances you could, very easily, cut off their contact but that you have actively chosen not to.

They just might respond to that.

Have you contacted a tracing agent OP? Some work on a no find no fee basis. I had some amazing results looking for someone (work related). Worth a try.
What would they say if you needed financial help with DD? Would they step up?

I'm torn between HoppingPavlova and JessicaDay's responses.

On the one hand you are trying to facilitate her relationship with her DGPs, on the other hand by doing so you are implicitly saying its ok for her to have a close relationship with people who colluded with her father to deprive her of support.

At 5 this might be fudged over but as she gets older you will be forced to collude with their lies or tell her they have lied but you are effectively ok with this. How will she feel about all of you at that point and what will it teach her about expectations of relationships with men?

I don't envy you, I think I would at least be reducing the relationship unless they can be more honest with you both.

As someone whose kids don't have a lot of extended family in their lives, I wouldn't be cutting people out of my child's life. People who love and care about her.

A relative in my family years ago had a ne'er-do-well son whom she basically couldn't do anything about. In fact she probably didn't have any control over him from about the age of 14 onwards. Certainly as an adult she would have had no influence over him whatsoever and walked a constant tight rope between loving and trying to do the best for her grandchildren, and being scared that he might turn up in a drug-fuelled rage and cause havoc (for any reason, not exclusively to do with his kids).

It's bad that they are covering for him but they might be afraid of him in some way or they just might be making a bad choice when for them there isn't a good one. They might think that either way: they lose (tell you and granddaughter the truth and he causes them hell or guilt-trips them/lie to you and tell themselves that it's ultimately for the best).

Please don't take them out of your daughter's life. They sound hapless and clueless rather than 'bad'.

I know how unfair it is that he's walked out but it is not necessarily their fault that he is the way he is. If you punish them for his behaviour both they and your daughter suffer.

Sounds like they love your DD but doesn't sound like they would put her wellbeing first and you should tell them that and tell them that this lockdown has given you lots of time to think about the right thing to do and you are seriously reconsidering their contact with your DD as a result. They are happy to cover for their son by lying to BOTH of you about his whereabouts and letting him shirk his responsibility as a father.

Realistically with the current status quo when/if he decides to resurface in a couple of years they will be painting him as a hero in your DDs eyes as he's clearly worked oh so hard to stand back on his feet (never mind he abandoned his child and withdrew all forms of support) and will expect things to go back to normal in terms of his contact with your DD and everything else that comes with it.
I for one would not allow that.

• he abandoned his child
• he withdrew all forms of support
• he has roped in everyone around to make sure you cannot find him so he can continue to shirk his responsibilities

Surely as concerned DGPs they would be hauling their sons ass back from wherever he is or kicking his butt into gear to make sure he's at least paying the minimum for his child their DD and not covering for him instead?
You need a frank discussion with them and if it fails to change their stance I would say you are unfortunately left with no choice as this cannot continue as it is and say something along the lines of what PP said and tell them it's up to their son to facilitate contact between them and your DD from now on.

To give a different perspective. I'm a single parent and DS's father hasn't paid a penny of maintenance ever. My parents are both dead and he has no grandparents and no father. I would definitely not stop contact. It's not their fault that their son has done this. If they gave you his address than they'd probably loose any relationship they had with their son. I think they are in a really difficult position too.

Loads of pp are projecting what the father did on the DGP. That's not fair.

They aren't colluding or enabling terrible people. They can't 'haul his ass' or whatever. He's an adult.

To those Pps, when was the last time that your parents had significant influence over you and could influence your financial decisions?

BTW, my father went on to have 2 more kids, that did not reduce they amount of time or effort my DGP put into me as either a child or an adult.

A birthday present and the odd token gift of clothes is not providing for a child. Op, how well off are they? I can’t imagine being able to afford to provide for my grandchild in these circs and not doing it.

I don’t know. It’s hard. I do think I’d have to call them and tell them the truth. That every time you think that they are prioritising their adult son building a business over being able to buy dinner and shoes for his child you are so angry. That you are lying to your own child to preserve her relationship with them and you just don’t know if this is right . But that you do know you will tell her the truth one day, and when she knows this and is old enough to understand how hard I have worked to feed and clothe her and bring her up on my own then she will see how very limited their love for her is, and she will choose the relationship she has in the future. So this is a reminder that you are building now the future relationship you will have with her. I can’t understand how anyone can make the choices you have.

You should let her see them. They don’t want to betray their son and maybe they have tried to tell him to pay up?
If you had a son, would you tell his ex where he was if he asked you not to?
They’re caught between a rock and a hard place and you’re being harsh

Agree MIa. It's a source of sadness and worry when you realise that your kids' circle is fairly small.

I have no clue what makes anyone think that people have any influence over their grown-up children. Nice, sensible, middle-class families might be able to sit down and discuss and reason with the arsehole concerned, and explain how he is failing his child, and that making them lie for him is a morally reprehensible. But presumably if they were that kind of family he would have been a bit of a different character in the first place. Because he has put them in this position.

Yes they are hopeless, but the likelihood is they are a bit dim to not realise how ridiculous their stance is, rather than malicious.

They aren't colluding or enabling terrible people.
They are most definitely colluding. They knew where he is and won’t tell the op, and are lying to their grandchild about it. They are making very offensive justifications for it- that he needs to be free of supporting his child so he can focus on himself and his business. They certainly aren’t offering the op any financial support. Frankly the dd might love them but as the op just looking at them and thinking they can spin that bullshit at me would have me raging. (If a birthday present and cake were financial support I’d count as financially supporting about 40 families)

Why do you want them having anything to do with your daughters upbringing?
You are aware of how they raise children.
They encourage lying and ignoring responsibilities.

Nice role models...

I think this is a difficult one, I really feel for you OP.

On the one have, you don’t want to deprive your child of a meaningful relationship with her grandparents because that just punishes her. She has a right to a relationship with her family and it’s important that she does have one (if it’s safe and in her best interests, and she wants one).

On the other hand, her grandparents are aiding and abetting their son in his abdication of his parental responsibilities (and I’ll bet sooner or later he will pop up demanding his parental rights). They are implicitly sanctioning his abandonment- most importantly emotionally- of his child by lying for him. If they were truly disgusted and their priority was their granddaughter’s emotional welfare, as well as ensuring she is properly provided for (by her mother getting a financial contribution from her father) they would do something to address that. Bleating “he’s still their son” whilst simultaneously saying their grand daughter is a priority doesn’t wash. They’ve decided where their priorities lie- and it is not with their granddaughter. Which means if it came to situation where their son asked them to do something which is against your wishes and not in her best interests- what will they do? Do the best thing for her or what their son demands “because he’s still their son”? That would be a concern for me.

The other issue would be if they are willing to lie to her about something as fundamental as not knowing why her dad hasn’t been in contact and that they don’t know where he is- what else are they willing to lie to her (and you) about? What else might they be prepared to do on his behalf? Would they put pressure on your daughter to keep things from you? I just don’t know how far I could trust people that seem to have such few scruples.

I’m not saying cut contact, but maybe you have to have an honest conversation with them. Personally, I would explain to them that you don’t feel you can trust them to put your DD’s needs first, before that if their son, and you have lost trust in them to be honest with you about other matters regarding your DD’s welfare. I would highlight that you cannot be sure what else they might lie to you, or DD about. Therefore, telephone contact is fine. They can see her- but they come to you or you meet in a neutral location and do things together, until you feel you can trust them again. That means DD gets a relationship with her grandparents but they do not have free rein.

Loads of pp are projecting what the father did on the DGP. That's not fair.

No, I'm judging them entirely for what they are doing.

They aren't colluding or enabling terrible people

They are though. As OP makes very clear: "DDs grandparents (his parents) know where he is but refuse to tell me. Their argument is that he is trying to rebuild his business/life and cannot do that with the maintenance people on his back. He hasn't even sent DD a birthday card or anything at xmas. The maintenance people cannot find him, his parents know where he is but refuse to tell me and if DD asks them they say they don't know (not sure how long they can carry that on for)."

Isn't it just wonderful for these dads who can take breaks from looking after their children, what would happen if a mother did that?

Tell them that they can still see her but need to arrange contact through him. That you’re not going to facilitate it anymore but her dad is welcome to. Then it’s up to them what they want to do.

Oh I like this idea if you feel they genuinely can contact him.

If this were me they wouldn't have had contact with your DD since the first time they refused to say where the father was.
They may be family but sometimes family do more harm than good.

I agree you should tell them that if they want to still see their DGD they will need to arrange contact through her father.

Also in an emergency would you rely on them for childcare?