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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

999 replies

coronaandtired · 18/05/2020 10:54

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

OP posts:
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16
Boulshired · 18/05/2020 11:41

For those who do care it is them that have to withdraw from society, or limit drinking causing health problems. Many because of sexual abuse or the fear of, the empathy for the struggle of trans women should not negate the empathy for women who will struggle with shared facilities. You can care about both without steam rolling one side and calling them names or silencing their voice.

Quillink · 18/05/2020 11:41

If you believe that biology is a man is man and a woman is a woman, how to you account for species that engage in sexual acts without reproduction?

In humans, sex is fun and homosexuality exists?

In other species: displays of dominance and the establishment of social structures?

Random.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/05/2020 11:41

This is a slippery slope argument. The question is whether transwomen should be allowed into women's public toilets.

Why bring up the fact that men rape women, unless the reality of that can be discussed?

I don't get it. I'd feel perfectly safe with a transwoman in the next cubicle. A rule about gendered access will not stop a predatory rapist attacking.

Again, bringing up the fact that men rape women, without acknowledging that places are single sex exactly for that reason. If a man is seen entering a female toilet, he should be told to leave, without women being labelled bigots. What you’re advocating is removing sex exemptions, because women get raped anyway. That’s abhorrent.

Why are you advocating for the feelings of a male bodied person over that of the rights of females, to feel safe, many of whole will have suffered at the hands of men. Why do you place their feelings above that of females? Do you think that male bodied people are more important than females? Do you really see nothing wrong with that sort of misogynistic thinking?

Binterested · 18/05/2020 11:41

op is here for the screenshots to help with the campaign currently running against MN by the MRAs and TRAs

Totally this. Transparent AF.

YgritteSnow · 18/05/2020 11:42

I’m bowing out now. That tumblr is inhumane, disgusting propaganda. I don’t know how you sleep at night.

I sleep a lot better since I got my dd into an all girls school so she wouldn't have to deal with this nonsense so much and since more important people than me started taking notice and speaking up.

🛏 😴

Ta ta for now!

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 18/05/2020 11:42

Well, I do care, and you do not have the right to give away my right to have sex segregated spaces.

Dawson is allowed to publish whatever they want, and others are allowed to comment on what they've published. Freedom of speech and all, it doesn't apply only to the people who're saying things you agree with.

IfNotNowThenWhenever · 18/05/2020 11:43

I care.
Not because I'm afraid I'm going to be assaulted but because I like privacy from men sometimes.
And so do my neices and my aunts and my mum. We don't need a reason.

TotorosFurryBehind · 18/05/2020 11:43

You don't get to speak for me as a woman. I care.

MarieQueenofScots · 18/05/2020 11:43

The concern with sport is fairness, isn't it? It's a totally different question

And physical safety. That is way more important IMO.

Helmetbymidnight · 18/05/2020 11:44

The concern with sport is fairness, isn't it? It's a totally different question.

Eh? It's the same question - should women be allowed single sex spaces - so you say YES if it's about Fairness but No if it's about safety, privacy or dignity?

I'm unsure of my opinion on sport. My gut says it should be down to how long they have transitioned and what their testosterone levels are, but I don't know much about it.

Thats transphobic I'm afraid. If a transwoman says they are a woman then they must be allowed access to anything a woman has or does, no?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 18/05/2020 11:45

Also, you posted this in AIBU and didn't enable voting.

Quillink · 18/05/2020 11:45

op is here for the screenshots to help with the campaign currently running against MN by the MRAs and TRAs

Yes. Targeting the voices of women who need single sex spaces is a terrible look. Yet that is what they are doing.

AnyFucker · 18/05/2020 11:46

@zscaler you must be reading a different MN to me

BolloxtoGender · 18/05/2020 11:46

Yabvu

AnnofPeeves · 18/05/2020 11:46

I can only assume that people who think allowing adult human males into adult human females' spaces are entirely ignorant of the risk.

Miriel · 18/05/2020 11:46

We get it, OP. You don't care. Good for you.

Lots of us do care, for very good reasons. Why don't we matter?

WeirdAndPissedOff · 18/05/2020 11:47

I personally don't care who is in the next toilet. But I understand some women do, and that's fine.
Toilets are also the least of the problem IMO. I used to think it was just about toilets and transphobia, and I absolutely think trans people should be allowed to live their lives free from discrimination or harm.
But that shouldn't come at the expense of sex segregated spaces and services which are segregated for a reason.

Summing it up as just toilets is misleading. How would you feel about:
-Sharing a prison cell
-Sharing an open changing room, including showers
-Sharing a women's refuge, after suffering rape or abuse
-If you run a service for women from your home, Male bodied women should also be able to gain access to your home for this service - you are not allowed to refuse.
-School changing rooms segregated by gender instead of sex
-School and child's group activity accommodation segregated by gender (eg teenagers with penises and vaginas sharing accommodation, rooms and tents on school trips) without parents knowledge
-Competing in a sport against someone who had previously been in a different category due to innate biological differences
-Competing in a contact sport with someone who is taller, heavier and stronger when this would previously have been disallowed, risking injury
-Medicating and stopping puberty in children and teens who are still figuring out who they are as a person

And if you would be ok with it, do you believe women should have the right to object to have a Male-bodied person in a space where they are vulnerable, or should they just put up and shut up?

Women have the right to feel uncomfortable in these situations. And, whilst the majority of trans people want to live their lives in peace and don't pose a risk, there are some people (genuinely trans or not) who are abusing the situation. There have been real "casualties" of self ID:

-Multiple Male bodied sex offenders are in female prisons. Several women have been raped or sexually assaulted as a result, including both prisoners and staff
-Official guidelines for some women's refuges and rape centres state that if a victim is uncomfortable with being in proximity with a Male bodied person due to their trauma, they should be refused help and sent elsewhere
-Multiple women have suffered severe injury as a result of playing contact sports with a Male-bodied person
-Several women in Canada have been sued, lost their livelihoods and reputations because they run a women's genital waxing business from their home, and would not agree to wax a trans woman's penis in their home (which aside from comfort or risk concerns, is a different procedure which requires different equipment and training)
-As well as your garden variety perverts taking selfies in women's changing rooms with naked women behind them, asking online if "as a woman" they should help young girls put tampons in if they see a child in the girls toilets, walking past a primary school with their penis hanging out of their skirt, etc

  • A 9 year old dancing for adults at night in a bar for cash tips (including some cash put in their underwear) is celebrated because they're a drag queen and therefore brave for breaking down boundaries
-Children are more pigeonholed than ever before. Rather than letting a child discover their identity in their own time, on their own terms, children displaying behaviour outside the gender norm are more likely to be pushed down a pathway which can end in medication and surgery -Young teens and adults who are now transitioning, who far from having the support of the trans community are shunned and silenced. They've gone through irreversible medical procedures and are now infertile, and still don't identify with the body they inhabit -A push for demedicalisation of gender dysphoria, meaning that counselling and mental health provision is woefully lacking

(I can provide citations for all of the above if needed, but CBA without request).

GruffaIo · 18/05/2020 11:48

"I care. And it's not transphobic. It would be transphobic if I cared about their gender identity, but I dont. I care about their biological sex."

I agree with @Lostvoiced . Well said!

NekoShiro · 18/05/2020 11:48

I don't care, I went to a lot of nudist places growing up so a maybe that's why I don't but I really don't, I've been raped and had an abusive partner before and that stills doesn't make me care if the person in a locked stall next to me is a guy, girl or neither.

I could just as easily get my head kicked in by a women in a female only toilet, I've had more children try to peer into my stall or changing room than I've had men or women.

Helmetbymidnight · 18/05/2020 11:48

So to be clear, even though girls are raped on average once a day by boys in British schools, 98.5% of sex crime is committed by men, and at least 16 women and children have been murdered in the UK by men just since lockdown, you think women should have no single sex spaces except possibly in sport? - because in sport alone its not fair to force women to share with men?

Hmmmm.

alittlerespectgoesalongway · 18/05/2020 11:48

I can see an argument for mixed sex spaces but I think transwomen coming into female-only spaces is different. We need to look at the reasons we had female only spaces to start with. And whilst I sympathize with what the trans-women want, this is not the only viewpoint that should be considered. To railroad others with your view, is actually, arguably quite a male stance. The reality is that a percentage of men make women very unsafe and this is more prevalent than men who make men unsafe, women who make women unsafe or women who make men unsafe.

AnnofPeeves · 18/05/2020 11:49

op is here for the screenshots to help with the campaign currently running against MN by the MRAs and TRAs

Yes, almost certainly. Such a shame for them that people have only pointed out valid concerns really.

Rosiejim · 18/05/2020 11:50

@zscaler I wonder what your angle is? A quick glance at the Feminist board first page i see threads on:

Afghanistan women killed after child birth
Male grooming behaviour patterns
Surrogacy
Surrogacy in the Ukraine
The Cyprus teen who was not believed

I know for a fact that rape conviction stats. Coercive control etc have been discussed at length

You know you can start threads about feminist issues that concern you?

Screenshot attached showing a thread on mumsnet about rape convictions being at an all time low.

Gender ideology is a hot topic currently but I have never seen any Transphobia on mumsnet. Women may discuss issues that concern them. I’m sorry if that upsets you

To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...
TyroSaysMeow · 18/05/2020 11:50

I don't spend a great deal of time thinking about the genitals of the person in the next cubicle, but I am quite keen on not being expected to use the same loos as my rapist, who identifies as a woman.

I guess his feelz are more important than mine though.

coronaandtired · 18/05/2020 11:50

I think transwomen are women, and so do transwomen and their friends and families and guess what? So does their passport/driving license. And they are using female loos every day. And will continue to do so forever.

So this is all moot really, I suppose. Anyway this post was at 160 replies last time I checked and I've decided to donate 10p for every post to Mermaids.

I'll be back later to see if I need to donate any more Grin

To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...
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