To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

Incognito
It's irrelevant whether you personally care or not. With this, as with anything in life, an individual can only speak for themselves.

So how many women - and I mean actual women - carry out sexual attacks in relation to men? So that’s a silly argument.

But since I have you, what is a woman?

I can't even.....
I've done it too many fuckin times on here, and I know there's just no point in doing so - doesn't matter what you say, unless there's complete capulation, surrendering to the accepted version, it's but you didn't answer, try again?
Nah.

You do realise women can commit sexual assault on other women don't you?

Whilst this does occasionally happen, sexual assault is generally a male crime. And the risks are much higher. I have been sexually assaulted by males on a number of occasions. Never by a woman. Because statistically females sexually assaulting other females is a relatively rare occurrence.

@PrincessConsueIaBananaHammock I have big concerns over self ID. Men announcing they “feel like a woman” - as I woman I have no clue what feeling like a woman is and I know I’m very different to other female friends. In Management training I fitted better with a male brain but I’m definitely female just a different type of female than the stereotype.

Growing up I learned that boys and girls toys weren’t a thing yet i had dc myself years later and shops seemed more than ever to have boy / girl divide.

I think the toilet issue is a red herring that distracts from the issue of society creating such strong stereotypes that people who can’t conform feel compelled to change who they physically are.

You don't know, do you lemonade?
It's not been that long since I went to school, and they still taught biology back then.

We're actually mostly pretty much fine with transmen using women's facilities because they are female.

But that\s the POINT though!
How would you tell?!
You don't get into an in depth talk at the sinks about what's in your pants.
I don't anyway.
If someone presenting as male came into the ladies, you wouldn't know they were automatically female.
A lot may not "pass" and still look feminine, but a lot more will have started taking hormones or whatever and look more male.

You don't know, do you lemonade?
It's not been that long since I went to school, and they still taught biology back then

Yes, and I've said on this thread in fact, that it's not possible to biologically change sex.
So we're agreeing on that score at least.

You do realise women can commit sexual assault on other women don't you?

I'm sure they can, and I'm sure some do, albeit not many. But there's one thing that's certain, and that's that they don't, and indeed, can't use their penis to do it. So that totally does away with that particular aspect of sexual assault when referencing women perpetrators.

I've never seen you do it, Lemonade. This is only the second time we've interacted, to my knowledge.

I know you believe "woman" has a meaning utterly separate from the physiological reality of the sexed body.

I know you believe "woman" is something that both males and females can be.

I haven't the foggiest what you think the word actually means though.

surrendering to the accepted version

It's the only version. Biological reality. There is nothing else.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

In case you missed it.

Would you be happy to give a bikini wax to this person or the other way around?
Would you be happy to share a changing room?
Would you be happy to share facilities in a refuge?
Would you be happy to go against them in a contact sport?

Because like I said it's not just about toilets. It never was.

A lot may not "pass" and still look feminine, but a lot more will have started taking hormones or whatever and look more male

In which case the third space is the perfect option for them as well isn't it.

surrendering to the accepted version

It's the only version. Biological reality. There is nothing else

Maybe for you.
I'm my biology, yes, but it's not just that.
I'm not a scientist so I can't explain further but it's just not all there is.

Toilets have to be segragated by sex.
Or gender.
Or both.

Which do you think is the best option, Lemonade?

For the record, I find it utterly abhorrent, this insistence that we should reject our female trans-identified sisters.

Stop inciting us to actual terfery. We won't do it. Not on the feminism board, and not in the real world.

They don't stop being our sisters just because they've been sucked in by the latest iteration of the patriarchal cult.

In which case the third space is the perfect option for them as well isn't it

Yes, but a lot of people on here say even though look male they're perfectly welcome in the ladies as biologically female and wouldn't put them in there cos danger.

Eh? You can believe in gender dysphoria ie. That someone bid confused and disorientated about what gender they are due to narrow stereotyping and you can understand hand in hand with that that it's impossible to change sex!

And women are not just men without a penis, like incomplete men

Nobody, anywhere has said anything like that.
That's your own spin on it.

But you will never give a definition of what a woman is and what it is that makes a transwoman a woman which makes them the same as adult human females to whom the description woman applies. Or indeed what makes a transman a man the same as an adult human male to whom the description applies.

I just knew the othering trope would be trotted out. Put simply, spaces are segregated on the basis of sex, if someone is uncomfortable using the facilities designed and provided for their sex the onus is on them to push for alternative facilities in which they will be comfortable not to demand access to facilities for the opposite sex disregarding totally the distress, alienation, fear, and discomfort of the sex currently using those facilities.

The people who are actually being othered in this debate are women who dare to have the temerity to say "NO".

The argument is that all that is required is somewhere to pee so what is the problem with a third gender neutral space for this purpose?

I see we've reached the part where lemonade refuses to answer a straightforward question by claiming theres no point in answering questions whilst also complaining about the lack of debate and compromise.

Good oh. Not long til the 'I'm bored with all the trans talk, all people ever talk about is trans, why do you always force me to talk about trans' phase of the cycle.

sets watch

Well said Tyro!

I dont care what gender females are, they should all be welcome in female spaces.

They don't stop being our sisters just because they've been sucked in by the latest iteration of the patriarchal cult.

WTF?
OK, sorry if I've misunderstood - but trans men can't be men as they've been sucked into a cult?
Do you mean biological females can't possibly identify as male. They've been brainwashed by the patriarchy?
(Apologies if that's not what you meant, if not can you clarify?)
If so just wow.
So much for being allowed to think for ourselves, doesn't sound a very feminist stance!

Good oh. Not long til the 'I'm bored with all the trans talk, all people ever talk about is trans, why do you always force me to talk about trans

It's a thread about trans issues, so stands to reason it'd be about trans

Yes, but a lot of people on here say even though look male they're perfectly welcome in the ladies as biologically female and wouldn't put them in there cos danger.

Well how could they be in danger when we're told that the other group of people using the facilities, transwomen, are the most vulnerable group in the world? So a third space must be perfectly safe and everyone wins.

So no answer about the harm that trans people would face from using a toilet for trans people.
Just a bit of whataboutery about something someone that wasn't me posted about their mate that they say passes.