To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains that's the fault of Self ID. Not ours. They wanted to deal in absolutes. Trans women are women, and anyone that says they are one they are.

They forced our hand with lady dicks , the clitoris as a penis, chest feeding .

They forced our hand by suing women when they refused to touch and deal with a penis either because of discomfort or lack of knowledge.

They forced our hands when they raped women with their lady penis.

They forced our hands when their feeling and need for validation came before a traumatised woman's safety and comfort in a refuge, during a medical procedure, at a rape centre.

They forced our hands by insisting that lesbians are transphobic and vile for not accepting a penis.

Crap, forgot to bold.
For clarity
Transwomen should put their very loud voices behind campaigning for spaces for transwomen. If they don't want spaces for transwomen and they only want access to women's spaces then it's not about safety as they always claim, it's about forcing themselves on women

Why is it about "forcing themselves on women?
What you're saying is that you want them to be othered, to have a separate bathroom?
A trans bathroom?
As in, a bathroom for trans women (biologically male) and trans men (biologically female)?

As that won't put them at risk at all will it?
What do we put on the door as a symbol? Maybe a T?

They forced our hands by insisting that lesbians are transphobic and vile for not accepting a penis

That comes down to consent though.
You're allowed to like who you like.
Anyone saying you aren't is wrong.

No we would just have a unisex toilet one separately enclosed completely safe that anyone male or female could use. This would run alongside single-sex facilities for males and females

lemonade what harm do you think tw will come to by using a toilet specifically for tw?

I don’t care about the genitalia. I care about the mindset of the person. And sad as it is, there are some people who will abuse this leniency to use and abuse women when they are in a vulnerable position.

I care. Nothing to do with being transphobic. Stop making things up. I don't want a man in a toilet when I'm in it.

@isabellerossignol I totally agree. And women are not just men without a penis, like incomplete men. We are women from conception, we are born as women with all the biological implications.
Men can never be women, they are bigger and stronger than us. Even elderly men are much stronger than most women, they have a higher bone density than we do, bigger lung capacity and this does not change thanks to surgeries, hormones or any other intervention. Men can overcome us easily.
Men can never be women, it's written into our DNA and I now realise that "allowing" some males to think that we women truly believe they are one of us and accept them as one of us is not fair to us or them.
Transwomen need to collectively create their own spaces and support such as women did, when we fought for our own services and funded our own refuges. Transwomen should not take our label of women. They can create their own and stop trying to take what isn't theirs.

Unfortunately, allowing some in means that they all demand to be allowed in, and the kindness of giving an inch means we're now clawing back a mile. Be kind does not mean roll over.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras no, get over yourself. I see you're still wilfully misunderstanding 🙄

I was in the work toilets on Friday. The passcodes have been disabled to stop everyone having to touch them in current climate. I went in and a man was there. I did double check I’d walked into the right loo - I had. He hadn’t. I assume he made a mistake but it did make me realise how little it bothered me. I smiled and said hi.

I was raped years ago but that was by someone I know and trusted. I’m not convinced by the danger.

lemonade what harm do you think tw will come to by using a toilet specifically for tw?

Again, trans men are being blurred out, aren't they?
It was said trans people.
Or is it just trans women that should be segregated?
As that's a bit double standards if so....

Well good for you. Just because I care it doesn't make me transphobic. As many previous posters have said,I just want girls and women to have somewhere where there's privacy from men. It strikes me that the number of female only places is getting less and less. A lot of men won't be happy until they have invaded access to ALL female spaces.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

I am a non-operative trans woman — that is, I have a penis (which I prefer to call a “clit,” “cock,” or “girldick”) and have elected not to change my genital configuration. Because HRT feminizes my body, my clit has soft, thin skin that prefers gentle stimulation. By all extents, it’s a feminine penis.

Things like this and many others is where absolutes from our side came from.

Would you be happy to give a bikini wax to this person or the other way around?
Would you be happy to share a changing room?
Would you be happy to share facilities in a refuge?
Would you be happy to go against them in a contact sport?

And women are not just men without a penis, like incomplete men

Nobody, anywhere has said anything like that.
That's your own spin on it.

It is amazing how under attack a woman's website is when women decide that no they are going to stand up for women's rights to single sex spaces. The barrage of abuse given to Mumsnet over this issue and the constant attacks are astounding.

Every time this issue is raised overwhelmingly women say we do want single-sex sports, we do want single sex spaces, we have the right to these under the Equalities Act and we intend to ensure these rights are not eroded.

Again, trans men are being blurred out, aren't they?
It was said trans people.
Or is it just trans women that should be segregated?
As that's a bit double standards if so

Well as a woman, I don't care about tm in the female facilities with me.

But for the sake of getting an answer, what harm do you think will come to trans people by using a specific toilet designated for trans people?

@m0therofdragons as a survivor I assume that you already know that not all victims react and feel the same or are triggered bu the same thing.

Surely you understand why someone might feel uncomfortable at best with a male bodied person in a space where they are vulnerable.

Surely you understand why they might need a female to offer support/counselling or conduct a medical examination.

Well as a woman, I don't care about tm in the female facilities with me

A few pages back, people were saying that they had friends who passed as trans men. GC posters, that is.
How do you know if they're trans,, as it's clearly not always possible to tell?
Yes, if they actually told you what was in their pants, fair enough.
You'd know.
It doesn't get that deep from a fleeting bog visit though usually.

To all those with the delusion that the general public thinks that TWAW and should have access to women's spaces etc., why is it that advocates of legal reform to remove women's sex based rights recommend that they attach their advocacy to more popular reforms (like gay marriage) to provide a veil of protection because of the difficulty in obtaining public support?

"In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for."

Why also do they recommend limiting press coverage and exposure?

"Another technique which has been used to great effect is the limitation of press coverage and exposure."

www.iglyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/IGLYO_v3-1.pdf

What you're saying is that you want them to be othered, to have a separate bathroom?

Othered? Well, they are not women, and they say they're not men. So a third space seems like a perfectly reasonable solution.

I don't care.

I have been sexually assaulted but I've also chosen to use men's toilets because the queue for the ladies was too long.

That choice did not mean I asked to be sexually assaulted or that all men will automatically sexually assault women.

You do realise women can commit sexual assault on other women don't you?

I care not what the person next to me is doing or who they are.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains that was in reference to the "true trans" mention. They're no more women than any other man.

But since I have you, what is a woman? What are the differences between women and men?

The idea for trans-only toilets came about upthread as a result of some posters' insistence that it's impossible to police the sex of trans people and only allow female trans people into women's facilities.

We're actually mostly pretty much fine with transmen using women's facilities because they are female.

The only people saying there's a problem with transmen using the ladies' are the people who would rather share our spaces with male trans people than with female trans people.

If TW don't want to use the men's, they need a separate space - but not the ladies', because they don't meet the sex-based entry requirement.

If TM don't want to use the ladies', they need a separate space - but not the gents', because they don't meet the sex-based entry requirement.

Both can be accommodated in an open, unisex, third space.

If this is not a possibility, then the only trans people in female-only facilities should be female trans people.

The only reason this seems remotely complicated is because certain people can't get their heads around the fact that transwomen - who by Lemonade's own admission cannot be biologically female - are male.

That's why the "debate" goes nowhere

A debate doesn't have to take the premise that transwomen are women. And people don't have to believe this is true in order to debate the topic. After all if transwomen were women then there wouldn't be any need for debate. But as everyone knows that TWAW isn't true, then the debate starts at this point.
Which is, the rights transwomen want versus the rights they should have. Transwomen already have human rights, so the mantra 'trans rights are human rights' is pointless. As they already have human rights.
Which moves us on to what rights do they want and need. Well they want the right to be safe from harm because of their trans status. That's fair enough, woman also want the right to be safe from harm because of their female status.
So transwomen want women's rights because they identify as women. Well we already know that they are not women, they are biological males, so clearly they can't have the rights that women have, because then women would lose their rights. And that's not fair is it, to remove women's rights in favour of men's rights.
So what options do we have left? Well there's the option of expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be male, by including feminine men. Well really, they are included, by virtue of being male (can't change that bit) and feminine. So they could use the male toilets, after all they are for men. But they are afraid of being attacked. How close to reality to this is hard to tell. Plenty of transwomen do use the men's toilets. With no problem.
The final option is a third space. That would solve the problem. So why aren't transwomen campaigning for this? Is it because they can't get in on women's spaces and thus force reluctant women to accept their identity in a women's space against their will? Is it because they don't feel safe with men and thus hide behind women and force them to share with... men. To keep themselves safe with no regard for women. Is it because they cant be voyeuristic in a third space. None of these things are looking good are they. Truth is, there is no debate. Men can't have women spaces. It's not for debate. The only debate is where transwomen are going to go. Are they going to campaign for a third space or are they going to keep using the men's. That's it really. It's nothing to do with women because it's not our problem.

@m0therofdragons

I have been raped and that’s not the only reason I want to maintain sex segregation for certain areas. But if it was - would you really tell me to get over it because you were fine with it?

Also, why didn’t you ask the male (presenting and not TW I assume) what they were doing in the ladies? Odd!

You do realise women can commit sexual assault on other women don't you?

Ah there we go! Bingo.