To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

What's the difference between a 'genuine transwoman' and a male though? And also, how are women supposed to know who the 'genuine' ones are?

Are you saying that only males who have had full SRS are 'genuine transwomen' because that is highly transphobic apparently?

I don’t believe in segregating society. I went to a girls school and I am not convinced it was a good thing. Even my first school had separate girls and boys entrances you might remember these if you went to infants before the 70s. I don’t see how going to the toilet is any different. We do our Downstairs Business in the cubicles. It’s not a changing room where we are Oh Naturelle and where I think we should stay separate.

There’s an awful lot of posts for a subject people aren’t bothered about, don’t you think?

Private space is not quite the same thing.

BubblyBarbara, you are free to use the mens toilets if you dont agree with separate sex facilities 🤷‍♀️

@BubblyBarbara you do realise it's not just toilets right?

It includes changing rooms, women only hour at the gym/pool, women's refuges, prisons, rape centres, women's wards etc.

It was never just about toilets. That's the issue.

And that's where the discussion becomes stalemate. As you say you aren't concerned about genuine trans women, but with men - a lot on here say there are no trans women, only men.

Not stalemate, more of a pragmatic conclusion. Many of us who used to be OK with the very occasional TW in female facilities have changed our minds.

Genderism has become more mainstream and males are starting to abuse the goodwill of women. Somebody like Laurel Hubbard or Rachel McKinnon can literally just pitch up, call themselves a woman and dominate female sport. Philip/Pip Bunce can win women's industry awards by identidying as a women for part of the week. The rapist Karen White can somehow get himself incarcerated with vulnerable women. These people are not vulnerable by any stretch of the imagination.

TW are no longer automatically given a pass as 'honorary women'.

My position has always been that it is deeply homophobic to disqualify some little boys from being considered male on the grounds of their natural effeminacy.

The fact that some of these boys internalise our cultural misogyny to such a degree that they come to believe womanhood is a costume they can wear to keep themselves safe from the violence and homophobia of other men is regrettable, not a thing to be championed and celebrated.

I'm aware that a great many people think accepting effeminate boys as boys is an extremist position.

It's not.

It's the only humane thing to do.

The only reason these little boys grow up to identify as women is the people around them could not, would not, allow their own understanding of masculinity and manhood to be shaken, and so refused to accept them as boys.

The fact that it's considered an extremist position to accept effeminate men as men strikes me as the height of sexist batshittery.

How is it transphobic to value safeguarding vulnerable biological women and children?

However, I do.

TW are no longer automatically given a pass as 'honorary women'.

Which is why TW are just as angry and against the TRA movement. And they also get abuse,threats and violence in return.

TW are not a new thing, it's not a new phenomenon. They have existed and just got on with it for years and years.

What's new is that some men have figured out they can gaslight, abuse, remove and attack women, push boundaries, bypass legislation (figuratively and literally) by hiding under the TW umbrella.

a lot on here say there are no trans women, only men

I'm one of those people.

I used to feel sympathy towards trans women. I used to think it must be terrible to feel conflicted, and I thought I wouldn't want to hurt the feelings of such people. And I used to think 'oh, I suppose a genuine trans woman, who has had surgery, isn't really the same as a man'.

But then I had a lightbulb moment a couple of years ago when I realised two things. 1) that it was about a lot more than lopping off body parts with surgery and 2) and this is the more important one for me, that these people don't give a damn about my feelings. Or about my elderly mother's feelings. Or my young daughter's feelings. Or my religious friends feelings.

And when I realised that they don't give a damn about my feelings I suddenly wondered why I felt obliged to give a damn about theirs. So now I don't. And I'm much more clear headed for it.

Transwomens problems are theirs and they are for them to sort out. Not for women. Women had to fight tooth and nail to get facilities in the first place. Transwomen should put their very loud voices behind campaigning for spaces for transwomen. If they don't want spaces for transwomen and they only want access to women's spaces then it's not about safety as they always claim, it's about forcing themselves on women. And by definition, that is a sinister motive.

Yes I do care.

I mind. I don’t want males to hear the rustle of pads and tampons or to watch me wash blood off my hands. I don’t want to have to sit or stand in puddles of urine. I don’t want to walk into a bathroom to be confronted by a male standing and urinating with the door open.

I've had some not nice experiences but I wouldn't personally care (easily said sat on my sofa, but I don't think I would)

What's new is that some men have figured out they can gaslight, abuse, remove and attack women, push boundaries, bypass legislation (figuratively and literally) by hiding under the TW umbrella.

Exactly. As I said earlier, a bunch of predatory men piggy backing on the very real distress that people with gender dysphoria suffer from. The next target is inserting themselves into the intersex and DSD community and appropriating their experiences to get what they want.

a lot on here say there are no trans women, only men
I'm one of those people*

There you go, see.
As I said.
That's why the "debate" goes nowhere.

There is no debate about whether men can become women. They can’t. So no, there is no debate about facts. Most people don’t expect to debate basic facts.

No, Lemonade, the debate goes nowhere because one side is still deeply entrenched in sexism and hasn't got the memo that "woman" is a biological reality rather than an identity, or a set of stereotypes, or a costume or performance or role.

If you could define what YOU mean by "woman" and "man" then we might get somewhere.

The rest of us are using them in their biological sense. You appear to be using them to mean something else entirely.

That's why the "debate" goes nowhere

In order to debate, a clear answer if what defines a women would help. Stereotypes and feelings would exclude the majority of women on here so we need an actual definition before we can debate anything

As several posters have said, Liz Truss, minister for women and equalities has committed to single sex spaces for women. The 'debate' is over.

It's now down to the nitty-gritty.

Transwomen should put their very loud voices behind campaigning for spaces for transwomen. If they don't want spaces for transwomen and they only want access to women's spaces then it's not about safety as they always claim, it's about forcing themselves on women.
Why is it about "forcing themselves on women?
What you're saying is that you want them to be othered, to have a separate bathroom?
A trans bathroom?
As in, a bathroom for trans women (biologically male) and trans men (biologically female)?

As that won't put them at risk at all will it?

What do we put on the door as a symbol? Maybe a T?

I dont mind either OP.

In the 80s it was quite normal for men to use the Ladies on a night out in the clubs i went to... I also experienced unisex loos in clubs in Germany then, no problem.
As a lone parent to 2 boys, i did occasionally use the Mens loos with them, when they really didn't want to use the Ladies.

I can understand how some women would feel uncomfortable, but i wouldn't personally..

There is no debate about whether men can become women. They can’t

Nobody's disputing the fact you can't biologically change sex.
I'm not anyway.

And feel free to debate how men can open up the definition of male to include gender non conforming men. That would be a useful discussion.

This thread however has failed. You’ve been ratioed despite bringing all the gang over to try the usual tactics, you’ve tried flouncing and throwing accusations of transphobia - and yet still no one has said anything transphobic that you can screen shot and send to your friends at Penis News