To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

so your point is that girls may not have single sex spaces (even though we know some wont use mixed facilities, even though we want them for safety, privacy and dignity) because girls bully girls too?

I haven't said that though. You've just made it up. My point was simply refuting another poster saying that girls won't use school toilets because of bullying by boys - I said that isn't correct. That's all. The rest is simply what you are making up.

OP that's great that you don't care what sex someone in the next door cubicle is. Good for you. I however do care, and so do a lot of other women and girls. Does that even matter? Or is that also something that you don't care about?

Women have hard-fought for legally protected single sex spaces. Do you even understand why women and girls need single sex spaces, or is that another thing you don't care about?

Please explain why not wanting to give up legally protected single sex spaces is transphobic. Genuine question, as I have not once heard a coherent explanation as to why wanting to protect single sex spaces is transphobic. We don't hate trans people, we just don't like having women's rights and protections eroded, and being shouted down and silenced and labelled a bigot when we try and discuss it.

And btw, no such thing as a woman with a penis, that is a man. Also not transphobic, just a statement of biological reality.

That’s fine that you don’t care OP.
But I care, loads of other women care.
You shouldn’t get to make that choice for us just because you don’t care.

Women’s toilets need to be for all women: so that doesn’t include men, however those men identify.

Anyone female (and however they identify) is obviously welcome to be in the cubicle next to me. Express your gender in there (and anywhere!) however you want to.
Single sex toilets are there for a reason though. They safeguard women and children. And women need women’s toilets (not unisex ones) for all sorts of reasons many of which men don’t have a fucking clue about and will never affect them:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203454-What-do-you-use-the-womens-toilets-for

I suppose those who feel comfortable with a transman in female spaces feel so because generally speaking, a transman brought up and socialised as a woman is likely more able to empathise with their former gender and less likely perhaps to be aggressive and also do not have the working genitalia or perhaps physical advantage to be perceived as a threat.

It is likely that many of us have been in the loo with a transwoman and been none the wiser.

However the concept of self ID means that either sex, regardless of their appearance, can claim the right to use single sex spaces regardless of the feelings of those whose biology tallies with the single sex space because they say they feel like that sex.

This is where the problem lies - it's not just about who's peeing where and with whom, although that is part of the debate - it's about giving some people a power to invade single sex spaces because it's upsetting if that power is denied, and also about denying those who wish to question that the right to a cogent reason - because apparently for some, asking any question that may help understand the issues is shut down with "no debate".

Self ID has lead to polarisation to a painful degree.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras Mon 18-May-20 16:37:29
My friends who are transmen look like men and use male facilities

So, my understanding of the views of many on here is that these trans men are welcome to use the female toilets. If that is the case, how are we to know whether the male looking person in the women's toilet is a man, a trans man or a trans woman?

Cross posted with hooves, exactly, how does that work then?

its a question- you are welcome to answer it.

youre the one making things up:

Yet this is dismissed on every thread because some posters want to make out that bullying is only the fault of boys

who on earth claimed this? ive asked you repeatedly...

I’m female and I don’t want to share a bathroom with men. Male bathrooms stink.

I wouldn't be bothered and I don't think people should be ostracised or humiliated.

Neither do the women who object to them being in female spaces, but whose feeling takes priority? Someone’s feeling has to. Should it be the male bodied person who demands access to a female only space or the woman who wants a place where they can feel their safety and dignity is prioritised.

OP you’ve picked the wrong forum! Mumsnet is little more than an anti-trans echo chamber. Best to just let them vent.

who on earth claimed this? ive asked you repeatedly...

Posters on other threads.

The initial post on this thread appears to blame only boys for girls not wanting to use school.toilets. There was no acknowledgement of other reasons why they won't use school toilets.

It doesn't. That's the point!

Transmen are women. The transmen I know would probably pass as men most of the time, they use the men's loos, they have not been chased out by men.

They made a decision at some point, probably when they bothered women in women's loos. Something TRA transwomen don't seem to notice or care that they do.

If any trans person passes then they will, as they have been doing for decades, use the loo of their choice.

That is not what TRA lobbying wants. In fact it has done much to prevent the decades old unspoken agreement from continuing.

So, go on, tell me how you want it to be logical... when you start by stating TWAW!!!

You can keep non stating stuff like that @Rowantrees... But you'd have to keep on ignoring mist if what is being posted...

Yes, the whole thing becomes a total headfuck - a bio man could indeed claim to be a transman if they had nefarious intent.

So protection of single sex spaces with provision for the non-binary / genderfluid / other is important.

What boggles my mind is that a relatively small number of people are demanding legislation to be passed / considered that will affect a much larger number. I can't think of any other current social issue where this would be considered without a very robust investigatory phase.

there are many valid reasons girls dont want boys in their loos 🤷🏼‍♀️ but i have never seen anyone believe or say this: As though if only men and boys didn't exist then all forms of bullying and assault would simply disappear. It's ridiculous
i wonder if you genuinely dont understand the reasons or if you are deliberately misrepresenting them.

I respect your right to not care about it.

Do you genuinely respect my right to deeply care about it?

The transmen I know would probably pass as men most of the time, they use the men's loos, they have not been chased out by men

Yes, exactly! But that's not the stance for a lot of people on here - they've said they're welcome in female toilets, cos biology.
How does that work then, if they pass as men?
Because to some, they clearly wouldn't be welcome.
As they'd look like a man in a woman's toilet.
How would you know?
Seems contrary to what is usually claimed, that "we can always tell" - that clearly it's not always that easy.

You’ve definitely picked the wrong place to post this, you’re either anti trans or anti women on here, there’s no in between.

a bio man could indeed claim to be a transman if they had nefarious intent.

Which is why we need to retain the right to query the presence of men in our spaces.

It Wouldn't bother me at all.
I've been in plenty of womens toilets and found piss covered seats and floors

But I totally understand its beyond uncomfortable and scary for some people

@coronaandtired
Totally agree with you OP, I think transphobia is common on Mumsnet, just look at some of the comments on here.

It seems a lot of "evidence" put forward for women only spaces presupposes that all men are potential rapists and all trans women/men are potential pervs or sexual predators. Using such vast discriminatory generalizations tends to render any point ridiculous as not all men are potential rapists, pervs, and predators and neither are all trans women/men, although, some are! (no need to post all the links showing that some are rapists etc!).

It does also seem OP that the women only spaces thing, doesn't seem to be as important off Mumsnet, as it is on Mumsnet.

My preference is that it would be done on a basis of trust and respect for other people's wishes and rights.

If trans women really understand what it is like to feel like a woman, and to be a woman, why would then intentionally put women's comfort and perception of safety at risk by using a single sex space that isn't meant for them?
That's pretty much how it goes at the moment, people aren't challenged in a female bathroom because in general women are socially conditioned to avoid conflict and awkwardness and also they wish to protect their own safety, so will just ignore someone or even perhaps leave.

I think transphobia is common on Mumsnet, just look at some of the comments on here

Please do report. I would be interested to see screenshots of what you claim is “transphobia”.

How does that work then, if they pass as men?

Because the choice the genderist lobby is determined to force on us all is: do you want to share your female-only spaces with female-bodied, female-socialised, masculine presenting people, or with male-bodied, male-socialised, feminine-presenting people.

If I must share space with someone who looks like a man, I'd rather it was someone who was born and raised female.

Put in those stark terms it's really not a difficult question.

I mean, if TWAW then it follows that WATW.

If you allow that someone 'identifies' with any gender identity, and accept that transwomen are a gender identity, this does start lending itself to a female identifying as a transwoman.

Particularly since at least one of the celebrity transwomen has declared that they are a true biological female and not a transwoman. Why? Because hormones while they were in the womb meant they were in the wrong body completely at birth and were always a female, just 'assigned male at birth'.

The ferocity of Mumsnet debates on these issues is vastly disproportionate to their importance in RL. There’s just a load of people shouting in here. Fortunately back in the actual world nobody is listening.