To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

Humans cannot change their biological sex and we shouldn't be telling children that it is possible. We are lying to them.

I think it's a little small minded and judgemental to assume people are transphobic because they have genuine concerns about how women only spaces are being encroached upon. Plus often I have been the only person in the toilets then one other person comes in. Not sure how some women would feel about being alone and exposed in the toilets when they are in there alone with someone who may be genuinely transgender or may be in there for other reasons; Google Karen White, prison transgender to see what I mean.

People are allowed to have opinions other than yours and not be whatever 'ist' you wish to label them as.

Humans cannot change their biological sex and we shouldn't be telling children that it is possible. We are lying to them.

I'd go further than that - some lobby groups are indoctrinating children not just lying to them whilst also promoting damaging and antiquated stereotypes of what it means to be Male/Female - stereotypes that are particularly dangerous for gay children who are gender non conforming.

Yes I agree this is just inflicting stereotypes on children. So homophobic parents of potentially gay children can joyfully proclaim their child is not a gay boy but a straight girl. A lifetime of medication surgery and infertility follows for that poor child.

Im ok with transmen in female spaces if i know theyre transmen, which of course is tricky to prove if they pass well, and likewise, if a transwoman passes well, it doesnt tend to raise alarms either. They tend to have medically transitioned fully if theyve already had facial feminisation surgery

I care because I don't want girls or women to avoid toilets out of the fear of a man being there. Or not go to a swimming pool and lose out on exercise.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras it's a fact that introducing mixed sex toilets in schools has led to bullying by boys towards girls.. and girls avoiding using the school toilets, girls in schools have also tried to protest their mixed sex toilets after they were introduced.

The quote didn't specify mixed sex toilets though. That's you adding additional information.

I don't mind who goes where tbh. I am
part of the LGBT community and would consider myself a trans ally. My good friend happens to be trans. I would have no issue whatsoever with her peeing in a cubicle next to me.

It's not personal bluewater. It's not about your friend.

It's about turning female spaces into mixed sex spaces.

Men commit 98% of all sex crimes. Including those who transition. It doesn't change. That's why spaces are segregated by sex, not gender identity.

I guess that's interesting, you are happy to generalise from the few people you know to anyone who claims they are trans

I am actually happy sleeping in shared dorms , sharing limited sometimes public toilet facilities with Male friends, but only with those specific friends, I would not generalise to all males as a result

So I've lost you, we're not talking about boys in mixed sex toilets? we're talking about boys in girls toilets? Why would there be boys in the girls toilets?

Where did you get the additional information that the poster thinks: if only men and boys didn't exist then all forms of bullying and assault would simply disappear?

I can't see that anywhere.

I would not generalise to all males as a result

And it's not even all males. It's males who disregard women's boundaries and don't care if women are uncomfortable with their presence.

How do we tell the difference between your nice trans friend and a sexual predator using a trans persona as a cover to gain access to women and girls?

According to her I'm a trans man. She was quite insistent that I can't be a trans woman

I was just questioning how you, who says you are a biological woman, could be a trans woman?
Because as far as I knew if you're a biological woman who feels trans that'd make you a trans man.
Apparently you're a biological woman who feels like a woman but is also trans, so hey you do you*

How does that make any more sense than “I am a biological male who feels like a woman therefore I am a woman”?

I mean, if TWAW then it follows that WATW.

Now this is the problem really, isn't it? I wouldn't mind my trans friends peeing in the cubicle next to me because I know them. I would mind a fully bearded biological male doing the same because he is an unknown quantity. My friends who are transmen look like men and use male facilities.

The unknown quantity male can say "But I am a woman" while actually being possibly a predator / enjoying a kink - but I am not allowed to express any vulnerable feelings about that according to self ID.

Therefore in the interests of the majority, some kind of acknowledgement of risk and safeguarding should be applied because essentially if we don't we are saying biological women must forgo their right to be as safe as possible in favour of some men's feelings.

This is not how an equal society works.

, if it was a choice between sharing a space with man who supported single sex spaces and one who didn't I would be asking to share with the first man.

It isn't a personal issue though.

I have a good friend who is a transman, all the surgery. Another who is a transwoman, very little surgery. Both have lived as they are for decades, both have GRC. Are accepted by all who know them as they present themselves.

They, as individuals, have nothing to do with how I feel about TRA lobbying to change single sex laws to the detriment of women.

Why is it always assumed that GC women don't know anyone who is trans?

Helmetbymidnight

The poster didn't say they were talking about behaviour inside the toilet - just that girls were avoiding using school toilets because of bullying by boys.

My point is that girls are avoiding using school toilets because of bullying. Even if boys were removed entirely from the equation girls would still avoid using school toilets because of bullying - perpetrated by girls. Yet this is dismissed on every thread because some posters want to make out that bullying is only the fault of boys.

Yabu. I want a female space for toilets, changing rooms etc.

I care. It is not transphobia. It's caring about women and girls, and believing that we all have equal rights.
And OP originally threw up their hands in horror at criticism of Juno Dawson. If you bother to read the Feminism thread about that author, the criticism is very reasonable, and is about their misogyny, and creepy male-gaze language about young girls. Same criticism would be made of anyone writing in that way, and we are allowed to review/critique/comment on this stuff.

. My friends who are transmen look like men and use male facilities

According to some posters on here though, they've said trans men are more than welcome in the female toilets because they're biologically female.
Which brings me to you saying they look like men, but to some "they can always tell" - that's clearly not the case then, is it?

My friends who are transmen look like men and use male facilities.

So, my understanding of the views of many on here is that these trans men are welcome to use the female toilets. If that is the case, how are we to know whether the male looking person in the women's toilet is a man, a trans man or a trans woman?

This argument being put forward that trans women shouldn't be allowed because a predatory man might disguise himself in order to access the women's toilets is surely blown out if the water if you say that trans men can use the women's toilets? What stops the same predatory man from simply saying he's a trans man should he be challenged? No need to do any disguising is there?

Yet this is dismissed on every thread because some posters want to make out that bullying is only the fault of boys.

i have never seen anyone on this thread or any other claim that only boys bully
why would they- it would be easy to disprove.

so your point is that girls may not have single sex spaces (even though we know some wont use mixed facilities, even though we want them for safety, privacy and dignity) because girls bully girls too?

thats laughable.

I mean, if TWAW then it follows that WATW.

Not necessarily. An analogy: all Scottish people are people, but that doesn't mean all people are Scottish people.

But certainly if TWAW then Ws theoretically have the option of being TW.

It's this bit that shows Lemonade's thinking though:

I was just questioning how you, who says you are a biological woman, could be a trans woman?

She's distinguishing between female women and male women by labelling the former 'biological' and the latter 'trans'. It demonstrates she knows damned well TWAMale.

I think it depends of the environment. I've worked in offices where we've had unisex toilets with no problem and had no qualms, about that (small offices, I might add - everyone knew each other). I don't think I'd feel the same way about a bar or nightclub or other public place. I just feel like it's enabling opportunists.

Having said that, if I saw a trans person in the ladies, I wouldn't be bothered and I don't think people should be ostracised or humiliated. I think the risk of men dressing up as women purely to sexually assault women is pretty low and really, what's to stop them anyway?