To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

XY = he's a guy.

Its interesting to see the lengths some people will go to to defend the rights of men to have access to vulnerable women and girls.

As always you have to ask cui bono? Why are they so desperate to allow an 'in' for predatory men? If it was just about protecting transwomen then the idea of 3rd spaces would be seen as a solution.

But no, it has to be full access.

Why?

This should be about widening the bandwidth of what it means to be a man. Not about taking rights away from women.

A man should be safe in the mens loos no matter what they are wearing. It's men who are trans phobic if indeed anyone is

Bandwidth widening - what does that even mean? sex is sex is sex. That is all.

Spot on, Living.

I've just read the Stonewall definition of trans in order to educate myself.

Does it mean non-conformity to social constructs surrounding gender?

Because that's a very broad definition........

@ChangeThePassword

I don't care. There was a massive hoohaa created in a former workplace about a transwoman using the women's toilets. And it was all down to one woman. Nobody else in the whole place was bothered.
That one woman was also the most self centred arsehole I have ever had the displeasure to work with. I'm not saying that's a reflection on anyone else that has an issue with this, everyone has their own reasons, but it was a huge part of her issue. She wasn't happy unless she was stirring up shit somewhere

And you're sure that the other women who worked there didntnjust say they didn't mind because to do so would have upset the transwoman, because you know women aren't meant to upset people, were supposed to be kind.
The fact that you're describing one woman's feelings about this very important decision in the way you have shows you haven't thought this through. One person decides they want to use the single sex space, another person of that sex objects, but the transsexual person wins the argument. That's telling the woman that her feelings don't mean anything. Ironic eh?

Pretty much OldQueen

It covers pretty much everyone

Very glad that you started this thread OP. I always am amazed that posters think that posting threads such as this outside of Feminism Chat will tend to have a more positive reception than you are getting. It rarely does, and it does seem like a few more posters actually started to think about and solidify what their own positions are on the points raised. So, pleased with that.

As with the overwhelming majority of posters, Women's and girl's rights are not yours to give away. And the Equality Act 2010 does say that there are exclusions available to accepting male bodied people into female spaces.

People who keep calling women supporting their boundaries 'transphobic' are over reaching and this truly is removing any power that this word has. Particularly, since you are using it exactly the way that has been recommended by the lobbyist groups as a way to shut down debate. Why is that? Why is debate so terrible?

Please, report each and every transphobic post. Just as I will.

people sharing pictures of people with masculine features in dresses and such really aren't helping those with valid points to be taken seriously.

It's to highlight the reality of self ID. If a person can claim to identify as a woman and have a legal right to be treated as a woman whilst still looking very male then sexual predators do not need to make the effort of "dressing up" to access female only spaces. It's a huge safeguarding issue which many people remain unaware of because they think all TW look like Blaire White.

A lot of trans women pass.

No. They really, really don't.

This says it all for me.

Yes, OldQueen1969, it does seem that way. I personally know of NO gender conforming people. Just people with a huge range of interests. It has been commented on very often.

Anyway, there are worse things to be than "transphobic", if "transphobia" means not agreeing that men can be women. It's the McCarthy era "Communist" of today. Thrown around to scare people into submission.

I care!

What does this post mean then helmet

Also what about teenage girls being bullied by boys when they hear the crinkle of their pad and tampon packets or the sounds of them using the toilet? It leads to girls avoiding using toilets (in schools).

This to me is ignoring the fact that many girls are bullied by other girls, which also causes girls to avoid using the toilet at school, and yet on threads like these the argument is always framed as it being only the fault of boys.

Is the poster who wrote this suggesting that in the absence of boys girls wouldn't be bullied about opening sanpro wrappers or wouldn't be afraid to use the toilets? If so that is just plain wrong.

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm not so sure about that. Most of the people I know / work with really do care about that. Maybe it's because we work in a role supporting vulnerable people and children that we can apply the research and assess the risk better than you can.
I care for lots of reasons:
Because some men will do absolutely anything to access spaces where women and children are vulnerable. They'll even risk potential death for it. ( Yep it has happened)
Because some men use spy cams in women's toilets. The evidence is there for you on youporn. And in my local area I know of at least 5 occasions where such equipment has been discovered. Just think how many haven't been discovered.
Because I don't want to sit on a seat that has been pissed on. Yes very occasionally the women's toilet is left messy. But no where near the level when men have done it.
Because I don't want men going through the tampon bin pulling out my used tampon to wear in their pants. Yes this does happen.
Because I don't want to be in an enclosed space where I am vulnerable with men. And before you say women are sexually violent too, they are nowhere near the level of men.
Because my sex is protected under the equality act. These spaces are a human right and it's not a human right for men to get to watch women in various states of undress, nor is it a right for them to insist we should validate their gendered identity by trying to force us to accept them in.
Because it's not possible to change sex. And toilets and changing rooms are segregated by sex. Not gender.
Because I don't want to share with men, no matter what they think their identity is. Their sex is male. That will not change.
There are many many more reasons. But I would be here all day typing. So I'll leave you with that for now.

@Witchcraftandhokum

I completely agree with you OP. The transphobia on here is the reason I'm too embarrassed to tell people in rl I'm on here.

You must have loads of examples of transphobia - can you screenshot some here?

I agree the transphobia is very unpleasant, but I would like female only toilets to be gender specific. Sorry, I'd like to say I don't care, and I wouldn't if someone was completely transitioned/ing, but it does open the door to some very dodgy characters.

I'm still not fussed about a woman with a penis getting changed in a cubicle next to me.

Eh?!

To women that don't want transwoman in their toilets, are you happy for transmen to be in yours? Because surely it goes both ways?

Yes.

To women that don't want transwoman in their toilets, are you happy for transmen to be in yours? Because surely it goes both ways?

Yes.

Why wouldn’t you? I don’t care if women are lesbians, old, black, disabled, smelly, tall, short... either. Because they are women and there for a pee.

It really does seem to boil down to validation of feelings...... now I am all in favour of people being supported to manage their feelings and emotions if they are being presented as problematic and preventing someone living a relatively happy and fulfilled life. Much of this involves (having had therapy) identifying what has caused the feelings (often trauma, quite often during childhood) and how one can process and reconcile the source in one's mind and move forward managing it - it ties into a feeling oof personal responsibility to oneself and those whom we care about.

Some of the TRA rhetoric seems to suggest that problematic feelings should just be accepted and society should adapt to accommodate those feelings without any further analysis of the impact to the person with the feelings nor wider society.

I struggle with many feelings - but I know darn well that wider society isn't going to rush to accommodate them because I'm a 51 year old post menopausal woman dealing with a huge mid-life existential crisis triggered by losing my Mum recently during lockdown (cancer). Sometimes my nihilistic feelings are overwhelming but I also feel it is my responsibility to manage them and if necessary take steps to get help if I need it.

I suppose I'm just musing on the definition of trans in general according to Stonewall.

Could trans be regarded as being in a state of flux?

Bold fails sorry