To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

I saw a screenshot where a trans woman posted something along the lines of show your dominance in the women’s toilets by standing up to pee with the door open. Unfortunately I didn’t save it, but someone else might know what I’m referring too

Why can’t men be forced to treat transwomen well in the men’s toilets?

I'd very much like this question to be answered

They're identifying as women though? A lot of trans women pass.
Off top of my head, India Willoughby.
Seriously, to go in mens toilets?
No.
So flip it.
So if there was a very butch, and passes as a trans man in the women's toilets (not everybody can tell straight away what genitals people are born with however much you may protest otherwise) - they'd be fine in there, nobody would question them or feel intimidated or whatever?
Because going by your argument very male looking trans men would feel safe and welcome in the women's.

@PennyForYourTroubles that was the Ma'am guy I think. The one with the nasty case of Male aggression to people too frightened of him to remember his correct bloody pronouns.

Very well said @DeRigueurMortis , I completely agree.

Except that you are transphobic @NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace

But ok keep thinking your not

I don't care @princessconsuelabananahammock - they could identify as a trout for all I care

You must have missed the question again @LemonadeAndDaisyChains, but don’t worry I’ll wait for your answer.

If a woman can’t be a trans woman, because she is a woman, what is a trans woman and what do they have in common with women, that makes them women. Please explain without talking a about ‘feelings’, because women are more than feelings. To describe women as no more than a feeling or desire is reductive and sexist.

@LimpLettice I’m not sure, I’m not very clued up on many more widely known trans people. Or as @emz771 points out, a man or woman pretending to be otherwise.
Isn’t it mad how sexist some people are, they think sexist stereotypes/gender stereotypes/gender/whatever else that means the same thing actually changes biology.

I was discussing an article written in a Scottish paper about unisex toilets with my dad. He couldn't really see the problem with it.

I mentioned that the (female) author had felt very uncomfortable about the men who were using the cubicles to pee with the door left open.

"Oh yes" said my dad "we do that". He got it then.

Self-id = unisex toilets = male toilets that women may or may not feel able to use.

Please explain without talking a about ‘feelings’, because women are more than feelings.

Translation
Please explain with an answer I deem acceptable otherwise I'll pretend you haven't answered and ask again and again and again and again and again
and again

I agree OP but you are wasting your time on here.

I care

🤦‍♀️ people sharing pictures of people with masculine features in dresses and such really aren't helping those with valid points to be taken seriously.

A large proportion of people who biologically have vaginas feel uncomfortable sharing spaces such as toilets with people who biologically have penises. Their rights matter too. They have those fears because of the disproportionate amount of abuse perpetrated by people with biological penises. THAT's the issue that needs to be dealt with. No amount of stamping down people's fears will fix that problem.

Please explain with an answer I deem acceptable otherwise I'll pretend you haven't answered and ask again and again and again

So you’re saying that being a woman is no more than a feeling? Thanks for clearing that up. It’s just as I thought. Full blown misogyny.

Do you think facilities should all be mixed? Or is it only men who feel like women who can use women's spaces, other men should stay out?

It's not a difficult question lemonade

But please do keep avoiding answering and showing up the flimsy foundations that the misogynistic TRA movement is built on.

Many boys and men would also feel more comfortable and safer using female facilities.
Should we let them in too?

WhatCFeryIsThis

🤦‍♀️ people sharing pictures of people with masculine features in dresses and such really aren't helping those with valid points to be taken seriously.

They are pictures of men who delight in intimidating and belittling women.

So you’re saying that being a woman is no more than a feeling?

Didn't say that at all, did I?
Put your own little twist on it all you like to ignore what I actually said,

• is that whatever anyone puts, if it's not an answer "acceptable" you'll just pretend it was never answered in the first place and keep on asking over and over and over and over until everyone agrees with you and your viewpoint,

Im not transphobic. But I am uncomfortable about sharing toilets. Maybe as time goes by, I'll become more comfortable it.

I want the single sex toilet provision which has rightly been widespread in place since the 1800s. Those spaces enable women the basic ability to fucking well leave the home. That is a core public right of women.

First time I've read every post on a thread like this and a few things stand out for a 'newbie'
If you accept that TWAW, then it absolutely is not just about toilets but all the other very real issues too. You can not pick and choose, so women's sport, for example will be completely trans in a few years because of bilogical advantages. You can not make exceptions if you truly believe TWAW.

You would be exceptionally blinkered to think that some male sexual deviants would not use self id as a means to persue their deviancies. Sexual preditators have always manipulated situations (choosing professions with access to children, for example) for their own ends and this would be another opportunity.
Those accusing phobia and bigotry are coming across on this thread as the least tolerant of different viewpoints, which seems strange to me. I think continually labelling some as phobic because they have expressed a different view will minimalise the word and have no meaning when talking about real transphobic actions, non of which have occurred on this thread.
My experience is it is not a generational issue but is certainly polirising.

It does seem that some are arguing that some rights are more equal than others. It has to be a reasoned and rational debate not who can intimidate the most.

The only counter I have seen to the very clear positions around why people don't agree with the OP is that TWAW, and that includes self ID.

After reading all this it seems to boil down to that. If you believe that, then of course they have the same rights. If you don't believe that, then all the issues highlighted are relevant. But if you believe the first then you absolutely have to accept all the consequences, you also have to accept not everyone will be of the same opinion, which doesn't make them transphobic.

As someone with no strong opinion before, what did I conclude from the thread?

There is no doubt that the trans community has faced descrimination, as have plenty, including women.

But it seems that if a designation was set up to create safe spaces or a acknowledge sex differences you can not just allow anyone to access services and spaces just by saying you are now a member of that designation.

This might exclude some genuine situations, but that's not unique when considering responses to these questions. Of course if you believe TWAW, this means nothing to you.

Today 10:54 coronaandtired

To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

And that most people probably don't either

And they are using female loos every day And will continue to do so forever.

What a good job you're not The Boss of All Women, op. 🙄

Men commit 98% of all sex offences, including those who say they are women.