To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

I'm also not a transphobe

What's a transphobe @Olliephaunt4eyes?

I care a lot. There are few enough safe spaces for women as it is, no need to take away our main one!

Why can’t men be forced to treat transwomen well in the men’s toilets? Oh yes, because it’s always up to women to make things easier and more comfortable for men, no matter what the harm is to themselves.

OP let's flip your opening post as a thought experiment and ask instead why TW care about the genitals of the person in the cubicle next to them?

For the most part the difference between Male/female toilets is the availability of urinals in the former and sanpro facilities in the latter - neither of which compromise the functionality of the space regarding the physical needs of a TW.

As such we can conclude that the reason for use of the female facilities has nothing to do with the sign on the door but the observed sex of the people using that space - ergo TW using female toilets absolutely care about the genitals of the other people using the facilities and from your perspective that is fine.

At the same time according to your logic, women who feel exactly the same are wrong and should be denigrated for doing so.

Why is it appropriate for you and TRA's to use observed sex as the basis for the choice of facilities/services for TW whilst simultaneously demanding that women should allow men to make their choice on the basis of their inner unverifiable gender identity?

Sorry LemonadeAndDaisyChains, that quote was from MorganKitten and directed at MorganKitten. I should have clarified that.

As to my question. Thank you for offering to answer me, so I’ll repeat the question, as it genuinely puzzles me as to why no one has answered yet.

*If a woman can’t be a trans woman, because she is a woman, what is a trans woman and what do they have in common with women, that makes them women. Please explain without talking a about ‘feelings’, because women are more than feelings. To describe women as no more than a feeling or desire is reductive and sexist.

I completely agree with you OP. The transphobia on here is the reason I'm too embarrassed to tell people in rl I'm on here.

I care, women and girls should not be compromised for any reason in female only spaces.

However I also feel that Trans women should also have a safe space for similar reasons.

Surely a solution would be to have a female only space, a male only space and a space for anyone that is Trans.

If trans women are true in what they say, that is, that they are women then surely they understand that there is a fear that is exacerbated by the fact that if we are forced to give up female only spaces then there are men that will use it as an means for their own nefarious purposes.

This is a real fear for many women and I understand that trans women have similar fears, so in the spirit of solidarity towards all women both trans and biological can we not agree to have separate spaces for both but still separate from male spaces?

Could it help prevent attacks on both concerned parties? We all as human beings deserve to feel safe.

@coronaandtired what about the example I gave? Would you care what genitals the person in the next cubicle had if they were masturbating while listening to you urinate???

Man. Real life experience of mine.

This man loved the sound of women urinating, really, really loved it.

He used to sneak into women's toilets. Now he doesn't need to. Walks in as bold as you like.

But it's the not the same. That's an argument used by TRAs to make women feel bad for upholding boundaries. Homophobia was and is a terrible thing. Being gay doesn't hurt anyone, it doesn't ask us to remove boundaries, it isn't asking me to suspend what I can see with my own eyes or put my child in vulnerable spaces with men, perverts or not.

Why do trans folk care about the genitals of the person in the next cubicle?

I care OP. Its not really about the toilets though. It's all of it. If we don't fight and say no to what we're uncomfortable with then we'll just keep losing our rights as women.

Plenty of posters have given very eloquent reasons as to why they want to protect single sex spaces. You haven't given one good reason why you're happy with diminishing women's rights.

@coronaandtired I asked you before.

If you don't care about toilets do you care about other spaces where women need single sex spaces? Like refuges, rape support, prisons etc?

Ooh, here comes the comparisons to gay men. I'm just waiting on the black woman comparison for a full house 🙏

Of course the Homophobia trump card is played. So many homosexuals and lesbians must be so fed up being used as some sort of gotcha. Talk about homophobic! Gay or lesbian people have never ever demanded access to same sex spaces, groups, shelters, jails, support groups, rape crisis, so your comparison is not only homophobic, but null and void.

I wonder if you would have such a ‘meh’ attitude to it if you were to watch your young daughter go into a public toilet/changing room followed by someone like my cousins ex who came out as transgender last year. He is a 6 foot 3 and built like a brick shit house but now wears women’s clothes, shoes and make up and uses female toilets and changing rooms in shops. I am pretty certain that if someone like that we’re to go into a toilet just as my 12 year old dd was my heart would flip a little. I do care.

and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.*

And people are allowed to have their opinion. Because you don't agree doesn't mean other people are transphobic.

All these allegations of transphobia. It’s McCarthyism. I have seen no evidence of anything other than genuine concern.

kareningalasmith.com/2019/07/27/counting-dead-women-and-counting-people-who-identify-as-transgender/

Here are some actual facts.

I mean, what's the problem, why would you have any concerns at all?

Most normal people do care. You can’t just choose to be a woman/girl no more than I can choose to be a giraffe.

I'm not transphobic

But I do want a woman only space to use for my personal business.

I have been sexually assaulted and raped, by men...so dont feel safe using spaces for men and women together

I've been raped and molested - I only want to be in public toilets with others with a vagina

Why can’t men be forced to treat transwomen well in the men’s toilets?

I'd very much like this question to be answered.

Why do trans folk care about the genitals of the person in the next cubicle?

And this one ^^

Gay or lesbian people have never ever demanded access to same sex space

Tell that to the lesbian woman at Greenham Common. (Yes, I was there.)

Has anyone dragged us disabled women into the fray yet? I love it when my womanliness is compared to you know, a male bodied persons. Makes me feel so validated and secure about my place in society.

I am mixed race and disabled, and I am fucking sick of being told male bodied people are a 'type of woman' like I am. NO!!!! I am a woman, they are a transwoman, which is a male. Shut up and leave me alone you bigoted misogynistic idiots!

@coronaandtired

Is this a man or a woman? How do you know?

The poster who was complaining about MN being transphobic because these threads are active or attract more comments - have you considered that they're active and full of comments because many, many women feel strongly about this issue.

I want singles sex spaces in toilets, hospitals, prisons and I want single sexed sports because it's not just about hormones but bone density and muscle development in biological boys / men.