To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

[coronaandtired]

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

Absolutely not. I would prefer men to be in a different loo altogether thanks, and you can disagree but I don’t really care. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I don't agree that 'in real life most people feel the way you do'. I don't know anyone who feels this way. Women have a lot more to consider than men do when it concerns their sexual safety. I suspect Spy Cams in toilets target females more than males.

My neighbour changed sex, she had the works, penis removed, hormones for feminisation. I would be ok if she walked into the same pub loo as me

Of course you would - you know her!

Plus, you know the ins and outs of her transition story, to the point you do know what genitals she has and doesn't have.

That's quite different from not caring what genitals a stranger has, which is what the OP refers to.

I doubt it's generational so much as people get a broader experience as they grow older and discover that there are lots of bad people in the world as well as good ones. For many, they then find some safety in sex differentiated resources

I think by the time they have had children and grown in confidence most younger women today will become less keen to give up sex based rights

Until we get rid of sex based violence we wont get rid of people being uncomfortable around people of the opposite sex.

And most men are lovely creatures , like just totally human and nice and wouldn't hurt anyone.

I know a man (not trans) who loves listening to women urinate, defecate and deal with menstruation. He nips into ladies loos to listen and masturbate while he does it

Actually, MN itself has a huge problem with this. There are many (and I will presume they are male but perhaps not all of them) who join this formun to ask questions about female peeing, periods, young children wetting themselves, nappy fetishes. Its amazing the amount of people who refuse to see it or excuse it as 'genuine questions' before its inevitably deleted .

My teens don't think it is right that a member of the opposite sex can choose to self-identify into being allowed to change for PE with them. They are outraged at the idea that they would be labelled transphobic if they objected. This goes for the boys having a girl who identifies as a boy and for the girls who have a boy who identifies as girl come in.

My father in law is a lovely man. We still don't want to get changed in the same room as each other.

Single sex spaces are for privacy and dignity not just safety.

I have trans friends of both genders. They are great people
What ??
No one has said they’re not “great people” thats not what this thread was about

Haven't read any of the replies but I completely agree with you OP x

I care.
Why can't the men's toilets be more welcoming? t's not for women to budge up.

And I really bloody care when it comes to my daughter.

Haven't read any of the replies

Maybe you should, or are you worried you might learn something from someone with a different opinion?

When no you have to qualify something with "to me" you must be fully aware that that is a thing you have chosen to believe, rather than it is something that is reliably true.

Like marmite is, to me, the best spread for toast.

Just say what you mean. You don't want to make somebody with body dismorphia feel uncomfortable and are willing to make allowances, and force all women to do the same!!

If each toilet cubicle is self-contained with its own washing facilities and is enclosed from floor to ceiling with no further ante-room then I don't mind which of the two sexes use it.

However, I do care and want single sex toilets where there is a communal handwashing area. I want this so that women feel safe and secure. I want it for privacy. I want women who have been sexually abused or raped to feel as safe as possible.

It is not transphobic to not want to have mixed sexes in toilets or in changing rooms. Trans men and women need to accept that sex is not something that can be changed. If they do not wish to go in the toilets allocated to their sex (and I understand why they may not wish to) then they need other toilets. They do not and should not have the right to relieve their discomfort by making the other sex feel uncomfortable and/or unsafe.

Maybe we need separate toilets for:
Female.
Male.
Trans female.
Trans male.

@WhatExit

"But in real life most people feel the way you do."
How are you qualified to state how most people feel?

I prefer single sex toilets. I'd feel safer and for my young girls to use.

Wanting to keep women only spaces is not transphobic it's basic safe guarding

Why don't Transwomen want to share the bathrooms with men anyway? Is it because they don't feel safe either? Surely that speaks volumes in itself?

@amomhasnoname

Cool. Screenshots pls?

NotEverythingIsBlackAndWhite, we have those facilities at our offices. It's shared space, works well too. I have no issue at all with those - in fact, if they'd always been around, I wouldn't have been squeamish about using a Mooncup.

I guess the self identifying thing has really made women even more vulnerable.

Men win- again. Access to both men's toilets and now female toilets.

I guess what they should do is eliminate large toilet spaces with shared sinks? If they all have self contained cubicles, sink, sanitary bins, hand dryers and whatever else, where the doors are full length floor to ceiling and secure then that may solve the problem.

Get rid of communal sink areas and make every cubicle accessible for anyone who wants access to it

I doubt it's generational so much as people get a broader experience as they grow older and discover that there are lots of bad people in the world as well as good ones. For many, they then find some safety in sex differentiated resources

This. ^ My boys used to think I was an awful bigot for not believing that TWAW, while also claiming that the fact that they didn’t want to sleep with those with penises that claimed to be women, was just “a sexual preference”. All three have completely changed their minds as they’ve got older (26, 27 and 30)

Sorry to disappoint those going that the younger generation won’t see through what dangerous, misogynistic crap this is. As most young people grow, they will not be so much ‘woke’ as women up, by the dangers that face women.

OP you’re going to get shouted down by the angry mob on here. But in real life most people feel the way you do

This
and YANBU

I remember Five Guys had that layout and I saw no problem with it because nobody got in my way. The cubicles were completely private, once you open the door out, you're a second away from the view of the restaurant, so a little safer.

You don't care about women either OP.

@Fluffybutter

I never said it was, I was just reporting my experience.

Did you read the rest of the post?

Most Transgender people are great people. Most men are great people. Most women are great people.
Safeguarding only works if we limit the opportunities for bad people exploiting gaps left by our faith in good people.

thats nice OP but you know very well that its not really about toilets, toilets is just one tiny aspect of

its about identifying into womens prisons and refuges, boys barely out of puberty taking womens officers roles in universities and political parties, about middle aged men with a life time of male privilage identifying as a woman and taking up spaces designed to boost female representation, its about men identifying as women going into lesbian spaces and then abusing lesbians that dont want to have sex with them, its about male bodied people playing women's sports and "folding them like deck chairs"

all of this relies on women making space, women being kind, women giving up their rights - note how transmen are not anywhere near as voicifeous in demanding their rights to go into male spaces

I am a woman, I dont idenfy as one and Im not giving up the spaces we fought hard for