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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say I don't care what genitals the person in the next loo cubicle has...

999 replies

coronaandtired · 18/05/2020 10:54

And that most people probably don't either?

I'm sick of the transphobia on Mumsnet, and fed up of how it seems to be fine on here to go after trans writers such as Juno Dawson, who is writing from their own experience and imagination, and absolutely allowed to publish whatever the fuck they want.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Mucklowe · 18/05/2020 12:36

trans people are some of the most vulnerable people in society and need protection

If that is the case (and I'd like to see the statistics to prove it), it is not women who make them vulnerable. It is men. So the problem is for men to solve/accommodate. Not women. We've fought our own fight, and are still fighting it. The trans rights battle isn't ours.

PotholeParadise · 18/05/2020 12:36

Gender-neutral toilets exclude Muslim men and women whose religious beliefs forbid sharing toilet facilities.

If you don't mind who occupies the cubicle next to you or who sees you wash your face, good for you. It's not all about you.

PennyForYourTroubles · 18/05/2020 12:37

You’re transphobic if you support women/sex based rates and same-sex couples.
You can’t be against transphobia whilst also being against misogyny/womens oppression and homophobia. Because trans ideology stands against both.
Trans stands against a lot of people, yet everyone else are part of a hate group.
Sex-based rights are there for a reason, as already beginning to show.

choccychipo · 18/05/2020 12:37

I'm absolutely 100% with you OP. I think it's a generational thing, something that will definitely become less taboo over time

MouthBreathingRage · 18/05/2020 12:39

I think it's a generational thing, something that will definitely become less taboo over time

Which generation is that then? Asking as someone in their early 30s.

RoosterPie · 18/05/2020 12:41

I agree with you and hate mumsnet "feminism

I prefer it to the brand of “feminism” which tries to police rape survivors’ traumatic response to being attacked, and dismisses women as bigoted for having an opinion on their rights which doesn’t validate males.

MarieQueenofScots · 18/05/2020 12:41

Which generation is that then? Asking as someone in their early 30s

My daughter who is 13 would like to know too.

Deadringer · 18/05/2020 12:42

What time is the angry mob coming, i haven't got all day.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 18/05/2020 12:42

For my part I don't really care much about toilet facilities...... but I do care about refuges, sport, prisons, crime stats, erosion of women's rights politically and socially, hospitals and so on

This, but i support other womens rights to care about toilet facilities (as I’m positive the previous poster does)

FizzyGreenWater · 18/05/2020 12:42

I'm still not fussed about a woman with a penis getting changed in a cubicle next to me.

Women don't have penises.

Men do, and because they use them to rape people with, I care what genitals someone has if they're accessing personal spaces such as a toilet cubicle next to me. That's why we have laws on single-sex spaces.

Would I consider myself transphobic - no, because I fully support the right of a person of either SEX remaining as that SEX but deciding that they are of a different GENDER. Along with that, I support the right of that person to be provided with appropriate facilities to support that decision both practically AND emotionally, such as for example the provision of individual bathroom cubicles and wash facilities marked as gender-neutral, the same with changing rooms, the same with any other public space which is typically sex-segregated. Bring on the individual GENDER- neutral spaces and facilities.

What I do not support is the shitting all over WOMEN who for very practical reasons have the right to keep single SEX spaces as single sex.

You can provide facilities without taking them away from others.

HermioneWeasley · 18/05/2020 12:43

Bully for you. You don’t get to give away women only spaces though

And if you see transphobia you should report it

Flopdrop · 18/05/2020 12:44

I am male and wouldn't want mixed sex toilets. I can't really explain why, other than I wouldn't feel comfortable with it. I think the idea that it is a generational thing might be true, and maybe in 20 years time it will be more accepted. I don't like it though.

SciFiScream · 18/05/2020 12:46

I know a man (not trans) who loves listening to women urinate, defecate and deal with menstruation. He nips into ladies loos to listen and masturbate while he does it. As part of his fetish he used to talk to me about and ask things like "why does the sound of peeing change when women pee?

He married someone who indulged his love of golden showers

So I'd rather not have him in the cubicle next to me so yes I do care.

SurfnTerfFantasticmissfoxy · 18/05/2020 12:46

You don't care - that's fine. That in no way invalidates someone else's right to care very much. Your viewpoint is not the overriding principal to which we should all abide. You sound incredibly self important

Megatron · 18/05/2020 12:47

It's a shame for the OP that Mumnetter's posts are pretty tame, especially when compared to the plethora of Twitter posts from Trans Rights Activists threatening women who disagree with them, with rape murder and torture.

Agreed, @SignOnTheWindow, it's dreadful.

SurfnTerfFantasticmissfoxy · 18/05/2020 12:47

Oh and FYI - woman with a penis? No such thing. Ever. Literally impossible.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/05/2020 12:47

Why has no one answered my question? I thought for sure those who are so pro trans, would be climbing over each other in order to educate me. I’m so disappointed in you all. Are you that transphobic that you can’t be bothered answering my question. Do you not know the answer? If you don’t know and can’t answer, does that mean you are transphobic. Seriously. Educate yourself.

This is a question to all those who believe the mantra TWAW. If a woman can’t be a trans woman, because she is a woman, what is a trans woman and what do they have in common with women. Again, please explain without talking a about ‘feelings’, because women are more than feelings. To describe women as no more than a feeling or desire is reductive and sexist.

LilMissRe · 18/05/2020 12:47

A trans woman, to me is a woman- so no problem; use the women's toilets. What I don't want is a male who identifies as male, being in the loo next to me, where the sink area is open for all. I would feel very uneasy. This has come from past experience. I would feel very unsafe and vulnerable.

Same with changing rooms.

growinggreyer · 18/05/2020 12:48

No-one has mentioned yet that when spaces are supposed to be unisex they become male dominated by default. I was in a staff toilet at work before the lockdown. While I was in the cubicle, two men came in and began a loud conversation at the sinks. I had no way of escaping the situation until they left. I know that they are actually nice men (teachers) but I was still shaken by that experience. What if that had been in a shopping centre and they were not nice men but the local scallies? It made me realise how vulnerable I was and I was just having a quick wee during my lunchtime.

OldQueen1969 · 18/05/2020 12:48

I have trans friends of both genders. They are great people and I have alot of respect for the way they have navigated their journies to become the well adjusted people they are today. Never having given much thought to my own gender but not having a problem with my sex, I keep out of debate about the issue - I have read alot to keep educated and abreast of the zeitgeist and my concerns about the whole thing come from the fact that while many transexuals are addressing a "being in the wrong body" condition which transitioning will help them address life more healthily, there are also the AGPs whose motives include fetishising the concept of womanhood and have a sexual motivation. That is a big part of the dilemma.

Wholesale acceptance of anyone who says they are a woman regardless of biology allows the second group to make things unsafe for both women and transwomen - women deserve safe spaces for when they are more vulnerable as do transwomen who also don't deserve to be tarred with the same brush as the AGPs.

So much of our lives as women is about always having to be risk aware. Women have to make sure they don't make themselves a target for rape or assault by policing their own behaviour. We have to not go out alone at night. We shouldn't get too drunk. We are still expected to dress "decently". We must be accountable and mindful of everyone else's feelings. We must sacrifice careers and financial stability if we want to be good parents. We must keep our children safe and educate them about risk.

On this one subject, as women well versed in risk assessment, we have voiced concerns backed up by evidence - as provided by PPs - that blanket acceptance of any biological male who says he feels like a woman and therefore should be entitled to previously single sex spaces is likely to open the door to those of a predatory nature who may then be able to call upon laws to validate their behaviour and claim that a victimised woman is actually a criminal bigot - and we are being silenced and told that the risk is minimal.

It is contradictory to ask women to do everything they can to minimise the risk of being harmed and then telling them they must accept a proven and evidenced risk into single sex spaces in order to be nice. It undermines our efforts to protect ourselves.

Whenever there is a serial rapist or murderer at large, women are advised to stay home, stay in groups etc etc. There is never a campaign that says "Men - don't attack women" Or "Men, stay at home and let women live freely".

This for me is the crux of the matter. Even old school transexuals are balking at Self ID which speaks volumes to me.

There are a significant number of people with disordered thinking, overwhelming urges to do things we can't even get our heads round, and this desire to be nice to everyone until they do something really bad is extremely worrying - once again, a number of women will become collateral damage in a war where one small group is determined to trample over the needs of another. It wouldn't be tolerated in any other scenario.

I am not frightened of transwomen - I am concerned that a minority of those using the trans agenda to validate their fetishes will cause harm to both women and transwomen, neither of which is acceptable.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 18/05/2020 12:49

And really it's not just about toilets, is it.
It's about changing rooms, refuges, prisons, women's groups & support services, sports, healthcare and so on.

I would happily use mixed sex toilet facilities if they were available, but I will always always defend the rights of women and girls who want spaces free from males, no matter how those males identify.

GoldenBlue · 18/05/2020 12:49

I don't think toilets is the crux of the matter. Sex segregation of sports, changing rooms, communal showers, refuges are far more important.

I get your point that you don't care about sex segregation in loos. That is your choice however you can't consent on behalf of others.

In the same way if one person wants sex and the other doesn't the no takes precedent.

Some women say no to allowing men into women's single sex areas and that is what needs to stand.

I personally have met several trans women I'd happily share personal spaces with and one that scared the bejesus out of me. Self if, 6 foot 4, with a beard, no surgery but wanted to share communal showers. Not someone I would choose to be alone with as it did not feel safe.

If you felt safe in that situation bully for you but you can't say yes on all other women's behalf.

I understand that you feel it is transphobic to state your discomfort, suck it up and make room. YABU

Megatron · 18/05/2020 12:49

@Flopdrop I'm not surprised by that and I'm pretty sure you're not alone. I know my DH wouldn't like it either.

PrincessConsueIaBananaHammock · 18/05/2020 12:49

What I don't want is a male who identifies as male, being in the loo next to me, where the sink area is open for all.

What if they identify as a woman and look/are completely male? Because self ID means that "I'm woman" is all that's needed to become one.

pollysproggle · 18/05/2020 12:50

I care.
I'd like to think I treat people as people on a personal level absolutely but it always boils down to the same question for me.
Putting myself in a scenario and asking myself if I'd be comfortable sending my hypothetical 10 year old daughter into a toilet/changing room alone where I know men will be. Be they trans or otherwise? The answer is always no, not comfortable whereas a women only space would be fine.

I have sons and I think like many women when we use public facilities like toilets and changing rooms we keep our sons with us as long as possible in female only spaces.
The same fears I'd have for young girls I'd have for my young sons.

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