Pulling kid out of private to go to (poor performing) state secondary

[Caplin]

Ok, I know it has been done many times.

We live in a relatively new build in an ‘up and coming’ area in Edinburgh. Our primary catchment school was of the worst in the city, so we decided to put the kids into private primary, but it is killing us.

We had already decided to pull them out for high school as the school was doing ok, but in the latest tables our catchment high school is in the bottom five performing in the city. Now I am panicking as eldest goes next year. Only 26% of kids got 5 highers.

Even before corona virus we knew we couldn’t afford private for high school. So do we risk it, or do we try and move? Looking around that means doubling our mortgage for a smaller house that needs fully refurbed. With corona virus, we might be even more screwed trying to sell our house 🥺

To be clear, I have no issue sending them to a state school, in fact it would probably be better for my eldest as she doesn’t do well with academic pressure, but I do have an issue sending them to a school that is crap. I can easily live with middle of the table, but this is just so poor performing.

@MissMarks can you expand on why you wouldn't send a shy child to Leith Academy. My son is not shy but just trying to find out as much about the school as I can before he starts. We should have been visiting shortly but now can't for obvious reasons.

Because it is tough. I worked in Leith. There are kids there who have had horrendous lives and as such they are streetwise. The reason the schools in areas such as Leith have such good pastoral care is because they have to deal with all the issues the children have. If your child isn’t going to need pastoral care it is pretty irrelevant.

@MissMarks our messages crossed! We'll it's not as if anyone has any choice, is it? That is the catchment school and we already have a house in Leith Links. I didn't even look into schools before buying the house as I thought he would be going to a private school and had no way of knowing a global pandemic would come and deprive my husband of an income! I've looked into placement requests but read that the council rarely give any. And my son really is that hard working, self motivated, interested student, so I have confidence he would do well anywhere, but obviously do have some reservations otherwise I wouldn't be here asking questions! I've tried to find out about the school on this forum before but didn't get any responses, so have been in the dark - apart from the exam results.

For the person saying the only difference is the tuition parents can afford I don't think that's true.

If you're referring to me, I talked about "the difference in the catchment areas and the amount of private tuition". The catchment areas of low and high ranked schools usually reflect very different socioeconomic backgrounds - a major factor in educational attainment.

I know this must sound so naiive but how can a Primary school be so bad that you have to send your kids to a Private school at that age? Especially knowing that you won't be able to to send them to a Private High school which to me is far more important?

I'm not in Scotland so feel free to ignore me but my kids go to the local High school which does not do well in league tables, etc. However they have done so well (they aren't the type of children that will do well wherever they are) and I cannot fault most of the teachers. Particularly since schools closed in March, the school have really stepped up to the mark with their home learning. So don't write off all schools that look to be failing.

I would move to another area. The exam result is abysmal . No matter how kind/loving/blah blah the rest of the school is ....it's exam results that get you places and the future is going to be even harder and more competitive .

I honestly think choice of school is so, so important. It is the thing that will make a crucial difference to your child’s future. Go and look round the school when it’s open. Hard at the moment. Really look carefully at what’s going on behind the scenes. Speak to other parents.
A lot depends on year group, teachers, so many things but the Head is also crucial. They often talk persuasively, but do they deliver?
Put choice of school before anything else,I would say. Tutoring may help, but if the peer group is poor, that will have a huge detrimental influence.

I think it would be worth trying for a placing request Hosnav - I think that it's generally easier to get one at older years rather than at S1. For S5 you would apply directly to the alternative school

Have you asked his current school if there is any leeway? Or a bursary?? I really feel for you as I am sure it is hugely stressful.

Thanks all.

Our catchment school is Broughton. We were initially ok with it as it has the Edinburgh School of Dance and The Music school. It is mixed, with some kids coming from a well off area, and many coming from a deprived area. Speaking to parents etc the two groups don’t really mix. But it has always had a decent reputation. That is why it was a bit of a shock to see the scores this year. They are normally middle of the table. The editor of the Times in Scotland sends his kids there, so I figured I was being overly nervous.

Ideally we would put in a request for royal high, as the eldest has a lot of friends from her dance school going there, but in Edinburgh out of catchment placements are virtually impossible.

Initially we thought we could stretch to private high school as my dad offered help. But he stopped helping in P3. Fees have been going up between 5-7% the past few years, and with changes to the law in Scotland around business rates, these fees will likely shoot up significantly more in a couple of years.

Our Catchment primary had a reputation for bulling, racism and very poor literacy. It is in an area of high deprivation. I used to volunteer in a similar school. A large proportion of the kids are vulnerable from chaotic homes. We felt it wasn’t the right fit.

Would you consider moving out of Edinburgh? Plenty of places within 1/2 hour on the train, cheap housing, mixed schools with enough academic kids to find a peer group. The saving on housing is easily enough to cover the commute cost. They’re not all fashionable places (try Falkirk rather than Linlithgow) but there are some very nice areas.

I also disagree that the reason some schools do well is that all parents are shelling out on tuition.

That's undeniably part of it. My kids are at a high-performing school outside Glasgow and there is a lot of tutoring going on. DD has a tutor for Maths as she struggles and needs to secure a strong pass at Nat 5 before moving on to Higher. Lots of her friends have tutors.

But the reason that parents pay for tutors is because the parents are interested and engaged and want the very best for their kids. Attendance at parents' evenings is exceptionally high, at the feeder primary it was something like 99%. There is a high proportion of parents who have professional jobs, are university educated, and expect their children to do the same. Children are surrounded by other children who are motivated and encouraged at home. School pushes them to aspire high, to apply for Oxbridge if they want to, to aim for the top in whatever field they're interested in and supports them all the way.

Contrast that with my own experience at a not-great secondary school where University was only for a few of us, and certainly not Oxbridge or anywhere like that as it wasn't for children like us. Some engaged and interested parents, lots who weren't. Kids bullied for doing their homework or "snobby" for answering in class or god forbid, being clever. Lower attendance at parents' evenings and discipline problems because many parents just weren't that much into the idea of their kids getting qualifications.

It's far too simplistic to say that it's all about tutoring. It's all about the socio-economic factors by and large. Also agree with the pastoral support thing - a friend has just moved from a school in Glasgow where she worked in pastoral care, spent all of her time liaising with the police, coordinating time off for court appearances for students and working with social workers. A huge proportion of her year group were in trouble with police, had a horrendous family background or were just from households which were exceptionally deprived. In her new school "pastoral care" is about sorting out friendship disputes and writing references for middle-class children doing their Duke of Edin award. In some schools pastoral care is good because it has to be.

@MissMarks the private school he is at now is overseas. We are moving into Edinburgh from overseas, but already have a house there. We may well be back on track financially when the time comes to send him to a private school, but right now I'm having to look at alternatives. Part of me also thinks he'd learn things at Leith Academy that he's been protected from in his Asian International School world, and that may be good for him too. Give him a broader world view. I have had a few emails back and forth with the Deputy Head there and he was very professional and helpful.

@StatisticallyChallenged thanks for the tip!

Move house or homeschool. There is no way you can send them from private primary to a rough comp (speaking as someone who has worked in private primary and went to a rough secondary).

Would you have any possibility of St Thomas of Aquinas, @Caplin? That must be your catchment secondary but I have no idea how it works with a non-catholic applying for admission. I do know of a friend who doesn't live a million miles from you and whose child went to St Mary's for primary as a non-catholic (total atheist in fact) but moved away before Seconary transfer.

I think it may be worth giving the Broughton School a go .See how things pan out ,and maybe keep an option of home education in place ,as PP said you could also have Tutors coming in as well .As far as moving is concerned its probably not a good time ,as the housing market will probably take a battering in the coming months /year.Are there any Scholarships avaliable in your area for a private School /Grammar?

It's the fact that they've attended private primary which is worrying. They will speak nicely and will stand out. They won't have the skills to deal with it. I'd move if you possibly can.

Toon late now but I'd have sent them to catchment primary then private secondary.

My kids, particularly the eldest, would just get mauled.

You either don’t have a very high opinion of ‘The Poor People’, you don’t give your children enough credit, or you've completely mollycoddled them

There are several nice catchments feeding into Broughton, it’s always surprising the stats are so bad for it. If there’s a period of time that more kids will be going from private primary to state secondary, this is that time.

The stats putting boroughmuir and Broughton at the same (greater than 20 percent) level of deprivation are misleading, they need more granularity as Broughton must have a higher percentage deprivation than Broughton.

*than boroughmuir!

Hosnav. Leith really isn’t a bad school. Senior years esp.. anyone staying on in school is pretty focused and there to learn. The staff are brilliant. My friends son is in 6th year and is on track to go to a good university.

Missmarks.. when exactly were you in Leith. This doesn’t sound like my friends son’s year at all. Sounds more like a BGE level class, and regardless of school they are always a bit wilder in my experience.. but then if your girls were at St. George’s / ME any girl in a state school sitting in the front row bored with a positive destinations talk may look like she is set for a hard life. There are some wild kids on leith.. but there are wild ones at our school, at a lot of schools. There are some kids right across the city living in abject poverty in the worst of circumstances. This doesn’t mean they are the ones with behavioural issues as well.
Mytwo are at a different school which again has a mixed catchment and there are positives and negatives to all schools. State and private.. Watson’s has it’s drug problems, Royal high does too, allegedly heriots has issues with bullying, so does Gillespie’s, there is no perfect school. Leith has a mix of the poorest and some of the most affluent in the city.

Not sure if it is leith the OP is referring to but choosing private primary with a plan to move for secondary does still read like an odd choice.

Why would you not want your children to move up with friends?

Oh my goodness Broughton? Hardly the toughest of the tough.
You know those crap, underperforming schools are so because of poverty in their intake? Shame the teachers didn't fix that! Higher results are an indicator of performance but only one out of many.
I think it was a poor parenting choice to put a child in private for primary knowing you couldn't manage secondary. Most people try for other way around if they go that route. Sounds like you have enough to pay for tutors when the time comes.

At the moment my kids are at ESMS. I don’t think we could get a bursary, and my eldest is fairly average academically so wouldn’t get a scholarship. The younger one might.

In a way my eldest might be happier away from an academic hot house setting, she prefers music and dance (hence being happy with Broughton). The younger one is far more academically driven and top sets for everything.