Pulling kid out of private to go to (poor performing) state secondary

[Caplin]

Ok, I know it has been done many times.

We live in a relatively new build in an ‘up and coming’ area in Edinburgh. Our primary catchment school was of the worst in the city, so we decided to put the kids into private primary, but it is killing us.

We had already decided to pull them out for high school as the school was doing ok, but in the latest tables our catchment high school is in the bottom five performing in the city. Now I am panicking as eldest goes next year. Only 26% of kids got 5 highers.

Even before corona virus we knew we couldn’t afford private for high school. So do we risk it, or do we try and move? Looking around that means doubling our mortgage for a smaller house that needs fully refurbed. With corona virus, we might be even more screwed trying to sell our house 🥺

To be clear, I have no issue sending them to a state school, in fact it would probably be better for my eldest as she doesn’t do well with academic pressure, but I do have an issue sending them to a school that is crap. I can easily live with middle of the table, but this is just so poor performing.

Only 26% of kids got 5 highers.

That's a 1/4 of all the children who have achieved the expected results despite being in a school which is not performing as well as others. You need to consider why the school is not rated higher by the inspection authorities, the reasons might not have an impact on your own children.

25% is a good figure for a school with mitigating circumstances - I'd be OK with sending my children there.

Therobin the tables the Op is referring to are quite literally a list of how many got 5 highers - it's not based on any other criteria.
(Unless I've missed something about their last inspection, which OP would be better looking for rather than the basic fact of who did what at higher. Remember some schools won't have many students who aren't at higher level in S5/6 - highers aren't appropriate for all and maybe some were courses correctly at the lower level).

I’d try it given the economic circumstances and see how it goes, there will be other parents making the switch into state at this point given the economic risk factors.

To be fair, you could live in one of the most prestigious streets in Edinburgh in a multi-million pound house and still be zoned for Broughton high school!

It is a big outlier when you look at BM, JG etc. With the catchment it has - not intake as they are quite different and it's become a bit of a vicious cycle- it probably should be better than it is

If you're in edin certainly are you in the catchment for the garlic schools? Kids from out my way (outside city but still EDI postcode are and neighbour gets taxi in to it every morning for her children). Gets really good scores as far as I know? Might be an option for primary at least?

High school I'd move out the city, we did and one of several reasons why. We are in Nice area, good schools (new one just about to open for high school actually). Bigger house, cost less. No brainer for us! Public transport into edin isn't too bad, DH gets bus into centre every day for his work, train is 10-15 mins and tram stop with free park and ride isn't far either.

I'd move. You can't send them from a private primary to a rough comp. It could be really awful for them.

*gaelic not garlic 😂

Bloody autocorrect (unless there's some anti-vampire schools in town I haven't yet heard of...)

Have you thought of applying for a bursary? If you offered something towards it?

You've got the kids there now. If you ring up and explain and ask about their bursary systems.

I'd be wary about putting a kid that is part way through primary school into the gaelic school if the language isn't spoken at home as most of the teaching is done in gaelic.

I found the stats I was thinking of- it was in the Times in 2018. It had Broughton at 30% of children from most deprived areas, gave it a competitor benchmark of 32% and at that point it was achieving 24% so fairly similar stats to this year

For comparison as there was discussion re Boroughmuir deprivation earlier - they had no children from most deprived areas, benchmark of 66, results 74

Royal high was 8/52/44

@applesandpears33 agree tbf, all depends how far through primary the respective kids are whether it's a feasible option.

It is mixed, with some kids coming from a well off area, and many coming from a deprived area. Speaking to parents etc the two groups don’t really mix.

This is really significant I think. Is there an obvious correlation between background and ability, so streaming etc, as well as with social groups?

If so, it sounds as though they're almost running two schools within one building. Like a grammar and secondary modern, combined. Is that how it is, educationally? Could you find out?

I've seen that in action and, like most systems segregated by ability, it seemed to work well for the higher performing kids (anyone who makes it into the 'higher group', which might mean average and above). It was also ok for the lowest performers, who were taught in smaller groups and ways that suited them better. It was crap for the middle-ground, the 'could do betters'; the just below average child who got put in with a non-academic, unmotivated group and learnt to fit in and make friends within that culture.

Disclaimer - none of what I am writing is a personal attack on any group - I am from a very working class background and grew up in an abusive household.

We were in a similar position as you in another Scottish city OP. Lots of new housing estates with affordable lovely new houses but shit schools. People will tell you that a bright kid is a bright kid no matter what school but a friend who teaches in one of the poor secondary schools that was close to us told me that in a one hour class, he got about 15 minutes of teaching - the rest of the time was de-escalating fights and generally calming the class down. There were also a lot of migrant children and literally gang fights most days between the migrant children and the locals, both in and out of school. I was like you - I didn't want "the best", I just wanted somewhere half decent.

With regards to my DC, I think DD would have been okay as she is of average academic ability and quite emotionally tough/able to handle herself. DS however would have been cannon fodder - he is a little different to his peers, very shy and introverted and cries at the drop of a hat. I am aware that bullying also goes on in "good" schools and private schools but its about the stats - at what would have been our secondary school, the biggest majority of the kids were trouble as were their parents. At the "good" school, most of the kids and parents are fine as in the parents would step in if their child was causing trouble.

So we moved to a lesser house in a better area which had a great secondary school. There were ups and downs of course as nowhere is perfect but it was the best thing we ever did.

You will get people jumping on this and saying its snobbery but you know your own DC best and where they are most likely to flourish.

Edinburgh is quite unique as it has such a high proportion of kids going private. The biggest influence on how well a child achieves is parental support. It's a fact that wealthier parents tend to be more engaged with their child's education and their lives are generally less chaotic. You need to take this into account when comparing Edinburgh state school academic results with those from other cities/areas. Imagine if you removed the top 20% best performing children from the ER schools, I think the tables would look very different.

Anyway, that aside, children can be bullied anywhere and high performing school and private schools still have issues with bullying and drugs etc. I think the biggest difference is parental influence and the levels of LLD in class.

I agree though that if the school has a catchment that is not mixed as such, more just rough v affluent and not much in-between, there tends to be little crossover. The danger really comes in the more rebellious years where they might "cross the divide" to piss you off. A more mixed catchment does allow for more general integration but less of the polar opposite crossover.

Schools can change as their catchment might include a lot of new private housing etc, but I think this is slow to make any significant cultural change.

I say all this as a child from a rough council housing estate who went to a school that was very mixed (Firrhill), which at the time I thought was quite rough and which now seems to be doing really well. I no longer live in Edinburgh. A girl from my class in high school was perfectly fine (Colinton Village) but transferred to private, then returned but was quite off the rails, she told us all tales of drinking and drugs on the bus before school never mind after.

I think you really need to see the schools and try to get a more local view than just the tables, but if placing requests are as impossible as you say, maybe moving is the key?

This is the tables for Primary and secondary in terms of where has space which might be useful:

www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/22448/secondary-school-roll-projections

www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/22447/primary-school-roll-projections

and a fairly recent thread on schools in Edinburgh on Scotsnet:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/scotsnet/3879422-Edinburgh-school-search-for-son-with-ASD-lockdown-panic

based on that I'd maybe think about an application to Craigmount? Fairly direct route to it I would think.

My ds attended a similar school and I believe reached his potential, however it was hard work.
He started school when he got home from school, practically taught himself and asked us for help.
The teachers were lovely and tried their best, but managed fire fighting at the most throughout the lessons.
Knife crime and drugs with a permanent Police presence on a sink estate.
You can't hope to gain an education in such a school.
I'd move to an area with better schools.

Not Edinburgh but mine go to a very mixed large state school with results somewhere in the 30 percents for 5 Highers. However if you only look at the cohort of kids from the ‘middle class’ feeder primaries I expect it would be twice that at least. Lots of professional parents. We activity chose state school over private for various reasons, but looking at headline league table results doesn’t give you a full picture.

You won't get a placement request for out of catchment child for RH. My pal is moving her kid from private to the school, they live in catchment and was unable to get into her year group. She is going, but, as S1 instead of S2, she's a December birthday so they opted to repeat the year.

Also, RH results fall into the "skewed" category - most kids have private tutors. There are great teachers there, but some of the behaviour is astonishing so the quality of teaching is compromised. The teachers do well, but, there are a lot of kids who need a lot of input - having a Naice Middle Class Background isn't protective against SEN/trauma.

Stick with Broughton. Fettes uses their facilities for a reason. It's not a worse school than RH. Plus, your kids will have pals on their doorstep, that's really important.

The stats I posted upthread suggest that RH isn't markedly better than Broughton - less deprived catchment so better results, but it's also underperforming if you assess it relative to the benchmarks.

@StatisticallyChallenged, can you post the link to get those figures please? I used to be able to look at them but now can't seem to find them. Not that I have DC in school anymore, but I still like to look at them :)

You should have saved the cash you have pissed away on private primary to afford a home in a decent secondary catchment. Mad.

If I had the benefit of time travel i think I would travel back to China and prevent a global pandemic or maybe a war or two, telling the OP she should have made different choices in terms of educating her children wouldn't make it on the list.

I'm not sure how helpful your "advice" is going to be to the OP now...

Wax might not help OP but someone else reading the thread might benefit.

True, but then I'm not a fan of the inequalities of private education. However Edinburgh would cease to function now if it wasn't there.

I live in an area where state outperforms private anyway, and I don't have that kind of money either so it's a bit of a moot point for me :) Plus DC are now in Uni.

Loads move into the area of decent schools to save the private costs though, just spending their money in a different way.