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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel sorry for these babies

262 replies

Hottoddy1 · 14/05/2020 14:36

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/may/14/surrogates-baby-coronavirus-lockdown-parents-surrogacy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The tone of the article seems to just be - oh what a shame that covid happened and this has meant surrogate babies can’t get to their intended parents. Absolutely no concern for firstly the trauma to the babies leaving the caregiver they are bonded with after who knows how long and secondly no acknowledgement that perhaps allowing people to go to other countries and essentially hire women’s bodies and buy babies might have some downsides for both the women and the babies involved.

OP posts:
PlanDeRaccordement · 15/05/2020 12:26

Breasted
“bad science isn't worth much more than no science.”
Agree, except the bad science were the 1,740 studies excluded from the meta study. The 55 studies that met the inclusion criteria were good science and those ones showed no difference between naturally conceived and surrogate children’s well being at age 10. Yes 55 is not very many studies in the grand scheme of things and the data was limited (none on international surrogacy or gay parents). But still it is a far sight more weighty than the opposite thought that surrogacy damages a child which had exactly 0 studies supporting it.

I don’t think surrogacy is comparable to prostitution. For one, the primary beneficiaries of surrogacy are fellow women who have infertile wombs and there is no other way to have a child with a biological link to themselves. If the man weren’t infertile, they’d have a sperm donor- no need for a surrogate mother. The motivation of surrogate mothers is primarily altruism, not economic necessity as most countries that have legal surrogacy only allow reimbursement of expenses plus compensation for time and suffering and they have strict screening processes with ethics based restrictions such as rejecting anyone at poverty level or below, etc.

In prostitution, the primary beneficiaries are men and there are numerous other ways for them to achieve an orgasm (wanking into a sock comes to mind). For the prostitute, the motivation is survival as around 80% prostitutes are trafficked women and thus are not doing it by their own choice.

It’s tempting to compare the two, but just scratching beneath the surface shows that they are really two very different things in reality.

PlanDeRaccordement · 15/05/2020 12:27

*if the man were infertile. Sorry

PlanDeRaccordement · 15/05/2020 12:35

In Anne’s interview about being a child born via a surrogate mother, she mentions “coming out”

In terms of coming out in my mind, it’s a bigger deal for me to tell someone I’m bisexual than it is for me to talk about my surrogacy, if that gives any perspective.

picklemewalnuts · 15/05/2020 13:25

However much research you throw at it, this remains a situation where more than 50 babies are left to 'mass care' in an institution.
Babies are born to mothers, they exchange genetic material with them, develop their microbiomes from them, and cared for by them until they reach independence.
Anything else is suboptimal. Sometimes suboptimal is necessary. Surrogacy deliberately creates a suboptimal situation.

Heygirlheyboy · 15/05/2020 14:08

Plan, do you work in this field? You seem to be very quick to say there's no proof. Have you looked for proof or have you looked for proof there's not?? The proof is neuroscience. If I get a chance I will try and link some relevant articles on early separation. Currently working in the child trauma field. It's not based on the experts' feelings! Hmm

Durgasarrow · 15/05/2020 14:13

I believe surrogacy is wrong. A child of surrogacy will always be the result of a power imbalancea less powerful woman using her body in a deeply intimate and painful wayto provide more powerful and wealthier people with that woman's own child, created from her body.

picklemewalnuts · 15/05/2020 14:14

I find it odd that people are incredibly squeamish about the concept of wet nurses, and not at all squeamish about surrogacy.

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · 15/05/2020 14:24

The 55 studies that met the inclusion criteria were good science and those ones showed no difference between naturally conceived and surrogate children’s well being at age 10.

The 55 included studies were rated on the quality of their evidence as part of the review - only 1 was high quality, 16 were moderate, 13 were low. The evidence for each aspect of the paper is given a grade and there are several sections which are classed as low or very low quality as a whole. The exclusion criteria was separate and wasn't to do with evidence quality so much as being the wrong type of study, the wrong language/translations from other languages, or double publications etc.

As for following the children until age 10, it's a start, but I'd be more interested in longer term outcomes that go well into adulthood, or at the very least into the teen years as that would give a better indication of emotional development. It's also worth noting that while at age 10 adjustment issues of surrogate children might have disappeared, they were more prevalent at age 7 and only declined after that. The larger study in Brazil showed evidence of speech delay, growth and motor development in early years. Obviously all to be considered with the caveats of not necessarily being great quality data, but if we're operating on the premise that we need to follow the science available, it still relevant that there is an impact on children even if it declines with age.

For one, the primary beneficiaries of surrogacy are fellow women who have infertile wombs and there is no other way to have a child with a biological link to themselves

Which is irrelevant in the context of gay male couples (no women benefitting there) or women that are following traditional surrogacy or using a third party egg donor (no genetic link to themselves).

In other cases it isn't just the woman, it's the couple as a unit that benefits. I can see your point where the commissioning mother is the egg donor, and I get that it's not a clear cut patriarchal oppression like prostitution due to the balance of the sexes, but when money is added into it there is still a discrepancy in the power dynamic between the commissioning couple and the surrogate mother, which makes me uncomfortable. The 'I'm paying, therefore I have control' mentality isn't uncommon in any walk of life. I don't think the fact that there are some women genuinely happy to become surrogate mothers (which there inevitably are) is enough to convince me that on the whole there is no risk of exploitation, and given that the victim of that exploitation will always be female, it’s a problem for me.

I don’t think it’s accurate to say it’s primarily altruism that is the primary motivator either. In the US and other countries commercial surrogacy is allowed which almost certainly means in some instances money is the primary driver (although people aren’t that likely to admit it - when everyone is gushing over how selfless you are, you aren’t going to turn around and say ‘oh actually it’s because they’re paying me a significant amount’, the average person would just take the praise). Many commercial surrogate mothers probably do believe altruism is their driving motive and that’s absolutely their prerogative and I wouldn’t question someone that said it to me, but I’d be interested at how much the numbers drop if commercial surrogacy was outlawed in the US and only very strict and limited expenses were permitted. It would be a much better indication of how altruistic the surrogacy industry there actually is, rather than self-reporting. I also haven’t seen anything which considers the very real risk of ‘independent’ surrogacies that are able to occur. All the commissioning family needs to do is find a willing woman (whether because she is being genuinely altruistic, or simply needing the money), provide the sperm, and fund the medical costs and legal fees for terminating the mother’s legal rights and adopting the baby independently rather than going through an agency (all possible in the US). I’d be surprised if this doesn’t happen (not necessarily in considerable numbers though) and its unlikely it would be classed in any official numbers or studies, plus its a relatively simple way of avoiding ethical restrictions and finding a cheaper local surrogate mother rather than going abroad. Obviously that’s just speculation but there’s no way of regulating that type of scenario to ensure poorer women aren’t being exploited.

Fundamentally it’s still an industry based on women putting their health, comfort, and personhood at risk for the benefit of (an often more privileged, at least financially) third party, in exchange for money. And that’s without considering the impact on the child which adds another layer of ethical complication. It might not be exactly the same as prostitution but I don’t think the parallels can be so easily dismissed.

If commercial surrogacy was banned globally, restrictions were put in place to stop any cross border arrangements, and expenses were properly and very strictly limited so there was no financial benefit to the surrogate mother involved, and it was guaranteed there was no risk of societal pressure or coercion (ie she is truly doing it for purely altruistic reasons for family or friends), I could probably agree with it from the perspective of its impact on women as a matter of policy, but I just don’t see it happening.

Either way, this has been an interesting thread so far!

Heygirlheyboy · 15/05/2020 14:28

I have only googled (there were plenty of peer reviewed hits!) and I've picked at random with only a glance but here's.one:
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1878929318301518

It also mentions reasons why trauma not always seen or not seen until later. I will look in more detail later.

picklemewalnuts · 15/05/2020 14:37

I've been trying to think of an equivalent for men. The closest I've got so far is paying someone to take your place in battle. There was an organised system for this in the american civil war. But it's older than that.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 15/05/2020 16:04

This is heartbreaking and sickening.

It has to stop. Babies can't be bought and sold like this. Unconscionable.

SerenDippitty · 15/05/2020 16:07

It is. That Daily Mail article really upset me. Babies are not commodities or consumer goods.

OhHolyJesus · 15/05/2020 16:24

The video here should come with a content warning, I found it deeply distressing, but I did manage to watch it all the way through eventually and no amount of happy plinky plonky music will detract from the screams of those babies.

rmx.news/article/commentary/video-over-500-surrogate-babies-left-in-limbo-in-ukraine-after-parents-barred-from-entering-country-over-coronavirus?fbclid=IwAR3IDgtpNBieCGub6qqCu1Wm_WQpolQutpCEcwuKh2FJV-J6fcO4tKLfvhQ

I noticed the BioTexCom - what kind of name is that for a company that sells babies (and has been accused of human trafficking) -employee has an apple laptop and sits comfortably in his nice office whilst the 'professional babysitters' and one paediatrician have to stay at the hotel and not see their own families.

I don't think the article can be correct about the numbers though as it says 500 but the hotel says they have 46. The BBC gave the number of 35.

OhHolyJesus · 15/05/2020 16:25

Other thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3909725-Ukraine-surrogacy-trade

OhHolyJesus · 15/05/2020 17:00

For those who disagree there is a 'primal wound'

thembeforeus.com/jessica-kern/

OhHolyJesus · 15/05/2020 17:01

Plan are you Kim Cotton?

FannyCann · 15/05/2020 17:11

It's not just the babies. You do realise women can die in childbirth and that surrogate mothers are at greater risk don't you OP.

https://us7.campaign-archive.com/?e=63ad6d7206&u=854a02957234313d134e9865d&id=7c0dc77e2e

In Memory of Lost Moms
by Kallie Fell, Research Associate
Mother’s Day is a special time to pay tribute to that beautiful soul that gives life.

I am blessed to have three strong mothers in my life: the beautiful woman that gave birth to me, my fierce and fiery sister (whom often acts as my second mother), and my sweet mother-in-love. All three of these women are dear to my heart! I hope that you had the opportunity to celebrate all of the mother’s in your life this week.
Unfortunately, for some, Mother’s Day can be a day of mourning. Perhaps this year you celebrated a life that is no longer with us on earth. If so, my heart goes out to you. This year, Aaron and his two sons had to celebrate their second Mother’s Day without their beloved Crystal. Crystal passed away unexpectedly on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 from complications related to premature labor from a surrogacy pregnancy.

We learned about Crystal’s death through another surrogate mother:

"Crystal Wilhite was a surrogate in my surrogacy therapy group hosted by the Center for Surrogate Parenting (CPS). She passed away in February 2017 from complications after going into preterm labor for a surrogate pregnancy. Following a blood transfusion, she received after bleeding, she was discharged from the hospital earlier than she wanted, as she was still not feeling 100%, and then died at home from an embolism or blood clot.
I have to speak about this anonymously because I learned about Crystal’s death and the circumstances surrounding it at one of the CPS group therapy meetings, and from emails sent around by CPS to all of us surrogates used by them. CPS made it very clear that we were not allowed to publicly speak about Crystal’s death, and so I fear that CSPone of the biggest surrogate agencies in California will sue me if I speak publicly and identify myself.”
It is not surprising to hear that Crystal was sent home early after giving birth prematurely. A surrogate pregnancy, with the additional risk of premature birth, is very expensive causing intended parents worry over being responsible for additional medical bills. Also, the fertility agency, worried about bottom line success stories, wants women to be sent home as soon as possible so that they can report uncomplicated pregnancies to potential intended parents.

Prioritizing money saved and profits made is all too common in surrogacy arrangements. Melissa Cook, a commercial gestational surrogate in California was carrying triplets and asked by the intended father to reduce her pregnancy or terminate her pregnancy due to the high costs of her high-risk pregnancy. Toni Bare, a commercial gestational surrogate in Iowa was told by the intended mother, she had to seek permission to go to the doctor, because they want to incur more expenses. Jessica Allen, a commercial gestational surrogate, who accidentally gave birth to her OWN child, along with a Chinese baby, was told she would have to pay money back to the Chinese intended parents , who paid for, two babies but only got one, and also to pay money back to the agency who cared for her child for two months until returning her baby. It’s all about the money and not the health and well-being of women and children.

Just two days before her death, Crystal posted a photo on her Facebook page of her hand and arm lying in a hospital bed, hooked up to a blood transfusion. Her caption reads, “Never been on the receiving end before…#ThankYouForDonating”.
A family friend wrote the day after Crystal died, “How is it possible? My friend’s daughter Crystal passed away yesterday . . . Crystal was a surrogate mother for someone else and something went wrong with the pregnancy. She died doing something for someone else. My heart is broken.”
The fertility industry and the fertility doctors know the real risks of a surrogate pregnancy, but they were willing to risk Crystal’s life, and silence those who would speak out, in order to protect their bottom line. May we remember Crystal’s family this week. May we remember all of the lives that have been exploited by the surrogacy industry.
In honor of the mothers lost during surrogacy arrangements, would you sign our petition too #StopSurrogacyNow?
The CBC has also produced a 45-minute documentary showing how exploitive the fertility industry, or as we like to say #BigFertilityy, really is. This documentary tells the story of Kelly Martinez. Kelly was threatened with financial ruin after nearly dying during her third surrogacy. But each of her surrogacy journeys had a price to pay. Kelly’s story exemplifies everything that is wrong with the distorted version of fertility medicine that is Big Fertility. It truly is all about the money. You can view this film free on Amazon Primee.
Are you interested in learning more about surrogacy? Our website has many different resources including these two fact sheets:
3 Things You Should Know About Surrogacyy_
Telling the Truth About Surrogacy in the USS_

FannyCann · 15/05/2020 17:19

Brooke Lee Brown:

Brooke died of a placental abruption days before her scheduled Caesarean section, along with the twins she was carrying.

"Brooke’s memorial service, says that she was a surrogate for five babies though it is unclear if that includes the two who reportedly died along with her and how may were multiple births."

She left a husband and three young sons.

www.legalizesurrogacywhynot.com/brooke-brown-story

FannyCann · 15/05/2020 17:20

Michelle Reaves died on January 15th this year. She leaves a husband and two young sons.

www.today.com/today/amp/tdna172216

FannyCann · 15/05/2020 17:24

I feel so desperately sad for these beautiful women and all their motherless children and bereaved husbands and families.

Don't ever let anyone tell me this is a beautiful journey to be kind and make a difference.

It is a rotten, heartless, exploitative industry.

ThanksThanksThanksThanksThanksThanksThanksThanksThanksThanksThanksThanksThanksThanks

Lemonsherbets78 · 15/05/2020 17:27

I feel sorry for everyone. For the baby, for the surrogates who are raising a baby that isn't theirs, and the parents missing out on the first months of their baby's lives.

Lemonsherbets78 · 15/05/2020 17:30

That being said, I don't agree with surrogacy. I haven't looked into it too much but from personal opinion, there are so many children in the care system...

Mlou32 · 15/05/2020 17:33

For folk saying that the baby will be with the woman who gives birth to them for weeks or months; I thought that generally what happened was the woman gave birth and the baby is handed straight to the biological parents? Is this not standard?

FannyCann · 15/05/2020 17:42

Mlou32 have you read the thread?

Cattenberg · 15/05/2020 17:57

@PlanDeRaccordement, I disagree that surrogacy in the US is well-regulated, especially in California. And yes, surrogate mothers can be sued for damages if they breach their contract.

Sorry to those of you who’ve read this link before.

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2017/11/20390/

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