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To feel sorry for these babies

262 replies

Hottoddy1 · 14/05/2020 14:36

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/may/14/surrogates-baby-coronavirus-lockdown-parents-surrogacy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The tone of the article seems to just be - oh what a shame that covid happened and this has meant surrogate babies can’t get to their intended parents. Absolutely no concern for firstly the trauma to the babies leaving the caregiver they are bonded with after who knows how long and secondly no acknowledgement that perhaps allowing people to go to other countries and essentially hire women’s bodies and buy babies might have some downsides for both the women and the babies involved.

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 15/05/2020 18:53

You're right Cat the more and more I look into this the US is like the Wild West for surrogacy! I certainly hope we don't end up with a situation like that here.

The contract material I've read online reads like The Handmaids Tale!

Whyamiwastingtime · 15/05/2020 21:43

buying a puppy isnt bad, but we all know that puppy farms are bad right? If i said 51 puppies are waiting their owners in a puppy farm you would all be up in arms... These are BABIES!!! in a baby farm waiting for their ....

CaliforniaMountainSnake · 15/05/2020 21:47

So, to be clear, infertile people should just stay infertile and suck up the fact that they can't have children? Because surrogacy is just wrong regardless of circumstance?

Is it OK for poor infertile couples to stay childless? Because let's face it, your average Joe doesn't have £20k+ knocking around to buy themselves a baby.

But I suppose if you're rich you should be able to buy whatever you want right.

It's hard to allow surrogacy based on empathy for infertile couples, when it's a means of having children exclusively for the rich.

Lynda07 · 15/05/2020 22:25

My three siblings and I were all removed either at birth or after a few weeks and then placed in foster care for 6 to 9 months before being adopted by our parents. None of us have any issues and we are very close to our parents so it always irks me to read comments that we must be somehow damaged or traumatised by the process.

I'm really glad it worked out for you, I don't believe anyone thinks you must be damaged or traumatised but the fact is, many children are. In your case it would have helped to have biological siblings, all in the same boat and you obviously had good parents. It's just not the same for all, especially those taken away immediately after birth. A few weeks with their bilogical mother is extremely beneficial as long as the child is safe.

Yours story had a happy outcome though and I'm pleased for you.

I generally don't agree with surrogacy. However in the case of a couple who cannot have a child because the mother keeps miscarrying, and nothing can be done to help her carry a baby to full term, if they have someone close to them such as a relative or good friend, who is more than willing to have their fertilised egg implanted in her, that doesn't seem so wrong. She can hold the child and help look after for a while after birth while the parents gradually get used and later on the child can be told that 'Auntie X' or whoever kindly carried her or him through pregnancy because mum couldn't.

In other cases such as one half of the couple being infertile, I do not believe an embryo should be fertilised by a donor or someone else's egg fertilised by the dad. In that case a person would really have three parents and if the surrogate was an anonymous person, that would be an odd story to tell a child.

Sometimes infertility does have to be accepted, hard though it is. There are many who do eventually come to terms with the fact and go on to live happy, useful lives. I wouldn't be so insensitive as to suggest that to anyone though, they have to reach that point on their own.

Mlou32 · 15/05/2020 22:27

@FannyCann no, I haven't read the entire thread. I started however it's far too long and I have a life! I asked a question...unfortunately when I saw you had mentioned my name, I thought you were giving some useful input. Sadly not.

NotBadConsidering · 15/05/2020 23:22

All forms of surrogacy should be banned. There is not a single scenario that is not fallible to major problems. It’s horrible.

OhHolyJesus · 15/05/2020 23:23

ITV Clip

No mention of the mothers buy BioTexCom man says numbers could double if government don't do anything Angry

It wasn't the government that started it!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BgPPOaNhPKk

(I think Plan is Kim Cotton...35 years ago Cotton sold her baby for £6k and she's been involved in surrogacy ever since...Hmm)

FannyCann · 15/05/2020 23:31

Bloody hell @OhHolyJesus That news clip - how unquestioning and platitudinous can they be. All about the poor parents desperate to get to their babies and how hard it must be for them. Not a thought about how this is an international trade in babies!!

DidoLamenting · 16/05/2020 00:43

So, to be clear, infertile people should just stay infertile and suck up the fact that they can't have children? Because surrogacy is just wrong regardless of circumstance?

Yes, they should. It's a pity but life's unfair- somethings just have to be accepted.

All surrogacy is wrong and should be banned.

SirVixofVixHall · 16/05/2020 00:46

I agree with Dido. Not everything is for us, not everything we want is ours for the taking. Just because you want something very badly, it doesn’t make it acceptable to damage other people in the process. That is why we try to make good laws.

WhatWouldYouDoWhatWouldJesusDo · 16/05/2020 00:49

It's sad that sometimes people can't have babies. It really is.

But buying babies from women who are living in poverty and desperate for a way out is not fucking ok. The fact that these babies even exist and will one day have to be told they're basically a cash transaction is what's even sadder. It's just wrong.

habibihabibi · 16/05/2020 07:14

Those Ukraine baby factory numbers will increase daily as more surrogates give birth with borders still closed. The 51 are only in 1 one outlet, I presume there are more.

firstmentat · 16/05/2020 07:26

@PlanDeRaccordement
I am originally from the country in the OP and I can assure you that the typical profile of a surrogate is very different to what you describe for the US. Definitely not middle class with tertiary education. They see also a very small percentage of the fees paid by clients.
Technically speaking, only gestational surrogacy is legal, but, in practice, many cases are biological surrogacy (cheaper, higher success rate etc).

NotBadConsidering · 16/05/2020 08:28

The argument is similar to sex work. A very scant few are happy with what they do and have great outcomes and that seems to be enough to justify the whole iceberg of human misery below them. And we hear from the scant happy few but never hear from those submerged in the iceberg. And the scant happy few seem to think they speak for everyone they’re shitting all over Hmm.

SerenDippitty · 16/05/2020 09:42

I am originally from the country in the OP and I can assure you that the typical profile of a surrogate is very different to what you describe for the US. Definitely not middle class with tertiary education.

@firstmentat Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that the case foe egg donors as well? A lot of older women go to the Ukraine for donor IVF because eggs are so easy to come by there.

HarrietM87 · 16/05/2020 09:47

I agree with @DidoLamenting. I’ve suffered with infertility and would never ever have contemplated it. And now having had my own baby the thought of having to give it away is absolutely horrendous. Infertility is devastating but that doesn’t make surrogacy ok.

OhHolyJesus · 16/05/2020 09:50

I'm pleased to hear an alternative view firstmentat particularly from a Ukrainian.

I'm interested to know more, I see Mykola Kuleba the children commissioner in Ukraine has spoken on the subject on his Facebook page.

www.ukrinform.net/rubric-society/3025949-childrens-ombudsman-proposes-banning-surrogacy-in-ukraine.html

firstmentat · 16/05/2020 09:52

@SerenDippitty
Yes. In general, fertility / childbirth industry is quite well developed, a lot of cheap IVF options exist there as well. I took advantage of it to give birth to my second (naturally conceived biological) child there. Private maternity is excellent and world class, and very affordable on the UK income.

firstmentat · 16/05/2020 10:05

@OhHolyJesus
I cannot say that I have a lot of insider information on how this industry is functioning. There are sometimes scandals leaking to the press, but mainly when the client couple decides not to accept the baby in the end due to birth defects (similar to baby Gammy story, if you followed rhat). There is a stigma associated with being a commercial surrogate, so it is not like everyone is sharing personal stories. I know from the articles it does seem like £3K-£4K that the surrogate gets must be a fortune in the country, but really, it isn't - definitely not a life changing amount.
I don't have a very firm opinion on whether the commercial surrogacy must necessarily be banned in all cases or not. It definitely should be tighter regulated, but I really doubt the ability of the state to police all the nuances in this matter, so a blanket ban might be a practical solution.

OhHolyJesus · 16/05/2020 10:07

Thanks for that firstmentat, very clear.

Firecarrier · 16/05/2020 14:45

@OhHolyJesus

Was that video meant to be comforting for the 'parents' Shock

OhHolyJesus · 16/05/2020 15:00

According to media around it yes Fanny.
Can't imagine why, I found it most distressing and I'm not connected to any of those children.

I worked out some sums.

If the Paediatrician spends just ten mins with each baby, on weighing and checking etc for 46 babies that's almost 8 hours, so a full days work. That's before phone calls to parents or answering emails or reporting back to commissioning parents on the health of the child. If any more babies are added, which they most likely will be if they had 4 in one day, I don't think one Dr is enough. It would mean a Covid-free Paediatrician would need to go live at the hotel so to take some of the workload.

OhHolyJesus · 16/05/2020 15:29

Sorry that was for Firecarrier (cool name BTW!)

Firecarrier · 16/05/2020 16:18

@OhHolyJesus

I agree, there is no where near enough attention/eye contact/cuddles being given to those babies. It reminds me of the old Romanian orphanages they used to show on TV with devastating outcomes.

Profit is definitely coming first here.

Hate to even ponder this but I hope none of the parents consider not taking them if this drags on (thinking their commodity is already damaged) Sad

RERE21 · 16/05/2020 16:19

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