To feel sorry for these babies

[Hottoddy1]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/may/14/surrogates-baby-coronavirus-lockdown-parents-surrogacy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The tone of the article seems to just be - oh what a shame that covid happened and this has meant surrogate babies can’t get to their intended parents. Absolutely no concern for firstly the trauma to the babies leaving the caregiver they are bonded with after who knows how long and secondly no acknowledgement that perhaps allowing people to go to other countries and essentially hire women’s bodies and buy babies might have some downsides for both the women and the babies involved.

Limitedsimba,

No, there is no evidence if this supposed “primal wound”. It is all anecdotes.

Surrogacy: outcomes for surrogate mothers, children and the resulting families—a systematic review
Viveca Söderström-Anttila, Ulla-Britt Wennerholm, Anne Loft, Anja Pinborg, Kristiina Aittomäki, Liv Bente Romundstad, Christina Bergh
Human Reproduction Update, Volume 22, Issue 2, March/April 2016, Pages 260–276, doi.org/10.1093/humupd/dmv046

“We examined a variety of main outcomes for the surrogate mothers, children and intended mothers, including obstetric outcome, relationship between surrogate mother and intended couple, surrogate's experiences after relinquishing the child, preterm birth, low birthweight, birth defects, perinatal mortality, child psychological development, parent–child relationship, and disclosure to the child.

The search returned 1795 articles of which 55 met the inclusion criteria

At the age of 10 years there were no major psychological differences between children born after surrogacy and children born after other types of assisted reproductive technology (ART) or after natural conception. “

Men buy the use of a woman's body, demand that lockdown restrictions are lifted for them and then talk about their feelings and not the welfare of a child.

The couple on the news, who used a private jet to collect their babies, were a heterosexual couple. They did talk more about themselves than the babies though.

Plan have you read the conclusion of the study you've just linked to? I wouldn't say it's exactly a glowing recommendation for surrogacy.

Most studies reporting on surrogacy have serious methodological limitations. According to these studies, most surrogacy arrangements are successfully implemented and most surrogate mothers are well-motivated and have little difficulty separating from the children born as a result of the arrangement. The perinatal outcome of the children is comparable to standard IVF and oocyte donation and there is no evidence of harm to the children born as a result of surrogacy. However, these conclusions should be interpreted with caution. To date, there are no studies on children born after cross-border surrogacy or growing up with gay fathers.

Golombok S, Readings J, Blake L, Casey P, Marks A, Jadva V. Families created through surrogacy: mother-child relationships and children's psychological adjustment at age 7. Dev Psychol. 2011;47(6):1579‐1588. doi:10.1037/a0025292

In the absence of any empirical studies of the functioning of surrogacy families, the present investigation, in which surrogacy families are compared with egg donation and natural conception families, was initiated to address concerns that had been raised regarding the potentially adverse consequences of surrogacy for parents and children, and is the first investigation of surrogacy families in which in-depth data on family functioning and child development have been obtained from infancy onward....Phase 1 was conducted when the children were 1 year old....Phase 2 was conducted at age 2...and Phase 3 was conducted at age 3.

At the age 1 assessment, standardized interview and questionnaire measures of the psychological well-being of the parents and the quality of parent-child relationships were administered to each family at home. The differences that were identified indicated greater parental psychological well-being and greater adaptation to parenthood by mothers and fathers of children born through surrogacy than by the natural conception parents

“The families were next assessed at the time of the child’s 2nd birthday. The Parent Development Interview (Slade, Belsky, Aber & Phelps, 1999) was used to provide an in-depth assessment of the nature of the emotional bond between the mother and the child....
In comparison with the natural conception families, the surrogacy mothers showed more positive parent-child relationships (higher levels of joy and competence, and lower levels of anger and guilt) than mothers with a naturally conceived child, and the surrogacy fathers reported lower levels of parenting stress than their natural conception counterparts (Golombok et al., 2006a). Regarding the children, no group differences were found for either cognitive development or psychological adjustment (Golombok et al., 2006a).”

“Assessments of family relationships and child development were again conducted when the child reached 3 years of age (Golombok et al, 2006b). The differences found between family types reflected higher levels of warmth and interaction between mothers and children in surrogacy families than in families with a naturally conceived child. Thus the findings from the preschool phases of the study indicated more positive parent-child relationships in surrogacy than in natural conception families. “

Breastedbody,
That statement that most studies have serious methodological limitations is why they only looked at 55 out of 1795 studies

And in a conclusion it is standard to state the limits of the data that was looked at.

A baby is not a right.

Totally agree with that, but sadly for many it seems to be in today's world.

I do understand the objection to paid surrogacy as while I do think anyone should have the right to rent their womb if they do wish, it is certainly open to exploitation.

However objections to unpaid surrogacy are dangerously close to policing what someone can and can't do with their body, in my opinion. Why shouldn't 2 - 3 mutually consenting people create a child that is very much wanted and will be loved?

If my womb proves to be able to carry a baby then I would be honoured to be a surrogate for a loved one and help them have their child.

My three siblings and I were all removed either at birth or after a few weeks and then placed in foster care for 6 to 9 months before being adopted by our parents. None of us have any issues and we are very close to our parents so it always irks me to read comments that we must be somehow damaged or traumatised by the process.

There are plenty of children born to mothers who drank heavily while pregnant who have no ill effects. Should we therefore encourage drinking in pregnancy?

NYCDreaming
That’s a wildly irrelevant tangent to go off on. Drinking in pregnancy is not comparable at all to adoption/surrogacy.

However objections to unpaid surrogacy are dangerously close to policing what someone can and can't do with their body, in my opinion. Why shouldn't 2 - 3 mutually consenting people create a child that is very much wanted and will be loved?

But we police all sorts of things that people do with their body! We prevent people from taking drugs, we prevent younger teenagers from getting tattoos, we prevent people with dementia from giving their savings to unscrupulous relatives, we prevent people from selling their organs. There are plenty of reasons to police what someone is doing with their own body, especially if there is a very vulnerable person in the middle of it.

@PlanDeRaccordement my point is that just because one person is anecdotally fine after going through it doesn't mean that it isn't harmful and to be discouraged.

Couldn’t agree more with @AllIMissNowIsTheSea.

I really feel for these babies and their surrogate mothers. What a horrible situation for them.

NYCDreaming that is why I asked if there is evidence that conclusively shows that separation causes trauma, like there is evidence to prove alcohol consumption in pregnancy is damaging. It doesn’t look like there is evidence based on what PlandeRaccordement posted.

Ok NYC Dreaming.
So since we can look at wildly irrelevant drinking in pregnancy. How about we look at breast feeding versus formula? Despite clear and convincing scientific evidence that breast milk is the best for the baby, we have not banned the use of formula. Have we? Not at all. It is even considered a valid choice for mothers who are capable of breastfeeding but just don’t want to. We have precedent where the well being of the baby is subordinate to the wants/needs of the mother, even at the detriment of the baby’s health.

Now, all current scientific studies to date show that naturally conceived babies/preschoolers are no better off physically or psychologically compared to babies/preschoolers created by surrogacy. There is no scientific evidence indicating that surrogate babies are damaged by the process at all (unlike formula fed babies who are at a disadvantage compared to breast fed babies).

Yet, people want to ban surrogacy arguing that it’s about what is “best for baby” And this claim isn’t based in science, it is purely on the strength of a few anecdote and “gut feelings” because science says the opposite. I say that is hypocrisy. It’s purely based on engrained stigma against “unnatural” methods of becoming a mother or mothering.

Hottoddy1, children don't
bond until 12 weeks. They can be comforted by their Mother's doing skin to skin, but quite quickly will respond the same to anyone doing skin to skin. Mother baby bonding is important if it's a long term relationship that's being established. But in the case of babies being given up etc, as long as the same level of comfort is given, they aren't disadvantaged.

Ideally the child should be settled by six months, which is why we've worked to speed up the permanency plans. It's more to do with how many caregivers the infant has. A child by 18 months old, in the care system, could have five, or more household changes and that's after unsuccessfully trying to bond with the caregiver. In the case of drug/alcohol abusers it's often seen, because not only are they not needs responsive, they don't have full eye contact.
Lots of factors are involved.

Plan The authors make it really clear they don't put much stock in the data they're reviewing.

there were only five studies which reported on the health outcomes for surrogate mothers. Given the prevalence of surrogacy this isn't exactly a wealth of evidence.

even in the evidence they accept in the study, a fair amount of it is classed as 'low quality' and some of it is 'very low quality', so I don't think it's correct to say that the comments regarding the lack of quality is related to the studies that were excluded. The disclaimer is completely relevant to the results.

the evidence related to the psychological impact on the surrogate mothers is 'sparse' and comprises 'non-representative samples, lack of control groups, and ambiguous comparisons with test norms'. Add to that the lack of considerations for cross border surrogacy where financial motives are likely to be more prevalent than purely altruistic surrogacy (which can change outcomes) and it's evident there isn't a clear picture at all.

the strength of the paper is noted as being the 'comprehensive appraisal of the literature' but the weakness is the 'lack of high quality studies'. You can review the available studies as much and as accurately as you want but the accuracy of the paper is only going to be as accurate as its source material, which is recognised as being weak.

I'm not saying the studies aren't absolutely relevant in the wider discussions, of course they are, but they certainly need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I don’t disagree with that Breastedbody
However, it is all the scientific evidence we have to date and it does not show or even indicate any damage to surrogate children due to surrogacy. Not one single study supports the “primal wound” assumption on this thread.

The deliberate use of one woman as an egg donor, and another as a mother, in order to damage the bond between mother and baby, shows this for what it is.
There may be a tiny number of women acting as surrogates for sisters, but in the main it is poor, uneducated women, some of them women who sadly get validation from the attention they get while pregnant for someone else. Then the baby is taken away, they may be left with birth injuries, what happens next ?
This is no different from prostitution.
How will these babies feel as adults ? Made from the eggs of one woman, and the body of another, only to be taken away ?
I am amazed that the current liberal attitude is that surrogacy is a good thing, from people who are very much against things like child labour, or the exploitation of poor workers. The men I know of who bought their babies from the cheapest country, have a business where they mention their charitable giving to a poor country, helping workers etc. Cognitive dissonance writ large.

"But we police all sorts of things that people do with their body! We prevent people from taking drugs, we prevent younger teenagers from getting tattoos, we prevent people with dementia from giving their savings to unscrupulous relatives, we prevent people from selling their organs. There are plenty of reasons to police what someone is doing with their own body, especially if there is a very vulnerable person in the middle of it."

Naturally girls under eighteen shouldn't be allowed to be a surrogate, nor should anyone with a condition that deprives them of full powers of reason, so your comments on underage tattoos and dementia are not relevant to my argument.

As for drugs, well, I'm of the opinion that these should be deregulated for adults and people with drug problems should be supported as those with alcohol addictions are.

I missed the organ comment. We prevent people from selling organs because offering monetary reward for them is open to exploitation, a problem I have already acknowledged with commercial surrogacy. We do allow people to willingly give them, however.

but in the main it is poor, uneducated women, some of them women who sadly get validation from the attention they get while pregnant for someone else.

This is not true in countries that regulate surrogacy properly, like the US where surrogates are primarily, educated, middle class, in FT work and have incomes over $50k (£35k/yr).

I'm not saying it does Plan, but in my mind, bad science isn't worth much more than no science. In addition my concern is not just to do with the impact on the children, but is to do with the commodification of women that is inevitable when selling a woman's health is part of a financial transaction, and the reduction of a mother's role in creating a child to that of a womb/vessel to simply 'carry' the foetus. I don't think promoting that message does women any favours, and I'd personally find it really difficult to agree with state-sanctioned surrogacy but then disagree with prostitution, as at their core, I find a lot of the arguments very similar.

I don't claim to know much about the third trimester/potential long term damage caused by removal at birth so couldn't comment on the reality of a primal wound or not. I was simply going off the content in that one paper.

Regardless of our differing views, it was an interesting read and certainly broke up the monotony of my day so thanks for sharing.

“How will these babies feel as adults ? Made from the eggs of one woman, and the body of another, only to be taken away ? ”

There are numerous interviews with children of surrogates if you want to read and hear their voices. In this one, Anne, says

“What about the fact that your surrogate was paid to carry you? I used to worry that my kids would think they were the product of a business transaction rather than an act of love. Did you ever feel that way?

This is actually a question I get a good bit early into the conversation about my “origin story”. In college at one point, I sat down with a guy who was writing a paper on surrogacy. The question of cost came up, and I called my parents on the spot asking them how much they paid. I don’t even remember how much the ballpark estimate was, which is a testament to how much I don’t really think about it.

In fact, the reason my birth mom had me had to do with her having an abortion previously. She wanted a way to give back after doing so and decided to be a surrogate. For a while, I thought that maybe I was just a redo after a mistake. That thought process quickly dissipates though when you actually break down the facts of how much time goes into being a surrogate mother. It’s not just a transaction, especially when I hear how fond my parents are of my birth mom and vice versa.

The money aspect never really bothered me too much. I think one of the harder parts of being a surrogate though has to do with the fact that I have really no reason to be upset at my birth mom or to not know her. It’s almost the opposite reaction to the money question: “Wow, someone did this for x dollars?”. In many ways, my birth mom did an incredible thing for my parents and gave up a huge chunk of four years of her life basically to do so. If anything, the money aspect is secondary but the “what kind of awesome person would do this?!” comes to mind.”

“One last ramble… being a surrogate baby is basically like half being adopted and half being a stepchild without any drama of a divorce. It leaves you in a weird place because you have some angst of “why did my mom give me up” but not nearly to the extent that you do if you were adopted. The angst that is there as a result often goes away when you release how selfless it was to do. However, you do feel a bit like a stepchild in that you aren’t fully related to one of your parents (at least for my kind of surrogacy). BUT you were so wanted by this parent that they planned for years to have you! As a result, it’s this weird mix of more common social norms in our society that leaves you feeling both like you have people who “get it” yet still a bit alone. I’ve balanced it by realizing as we all do that there will be very few if any people who totally get your story. There are some friends who I can talk to about my sexual identity but who may not understand the surrogacy/family side and vice versa. Fortunately, I have a variety of people who I can turn to for different things and, ultimately, as a collective group of people I have never felt alone in this.”
Much much more at:
jerry-mahoney.com/2015/05/15/my-interview-with-anne-a-child-of-surrogacy-part-2/

@CoalCraft these examples are very deliberately about vulnerable people. Read the comments by @haawa and tell me that there is no problem with altruistic surrogacy!