To feel sorry for these babies

[Hottoddy1]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/may/14/surrogates-baby-coronavirus-lockdown-parents-surrogacy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The tone of the article seems to just be - oh what a shame that covid happened and this has meant surrogate babies can’t get to their intended parents. Absolutely no concern for firstly the trauma to the babies leaving the caregiver they are bonded with after who knows how long and secondly no acknowledgement that perhaps allowing people to go to other countries and essentially hire women’s bodies and buy babies might have some downsides for both the women and the babies involved.

I agree with your sentiments entirely, Hottoddy.

Anything that turns a human being into a commodity to be bought or rented, even if some people find the arrangements work for them, is pretty repugnant to me and imo shouldn't be supported in any form from a public policy perspective. More so when it disproportionately impacts one class of people.

The fact money is involved immediately creates a power imbalances that spills over internationally. I can't put too much stock in studies of US surrogate mothers that don't also consider the views of surrogate mothers from countries that have been used as 'destinations' for cheaper surrogacy arrangements eg Thailand, India, or Ukraine, who have been hired by US couples, it's only part of the story (and is almost certainly the happier side).

I also find the language very dehumanising. 'Surrogate' rather than 'mother' or even 'surrogate mother'. In some articles/conversations it's just the 'uterus' that is discussed (in the context of ‘implanted into the uterus’), ‘carrier’ or the 'vessel'. Language like that is intentionally used to help shape the narrative and lessen the role of the surrogate mother. We should be able to talk about it properly.

Regardless of whether the contracts are legally enforceable, they are designed to make women feel like they don’t have control (which, in turn, psychologically does impact the degree to which someone will argue with a decision being imposed on them). I imagine it would be incredibly difficult for any pregnant woman to suddenly decide they were going to renege on the ‘agreement’ due to expectations and societal pressures. If we were talking about anything else I don't think we'd call it consent.

Even 'altruistic' surrogacy comes with a host of issues as haawa's story shows.

On top of that there's the risks to the child which other posters have explained more knowledgeably than I could.

Unless and until surrogacy can be regulated to be perfect (e.g. no exploitation of any women whether financially or emotionally, clear evidence there is no risk of emotional damage to the child) I just can't agree with it as a concept. Infertility must be heartbreaking, but I don't think it is a valid reason to create and prop up an industry that puts women globally at risk of death, serious injury, or exploitation, or children at risk of deep psychological issues.

 for you @haawa. Your story is truly heartbreaking. Thank you for sharing it with us.

"Attachment and speration trauma doesn't happen when a baby is removed immediately as it hasn't bonded."

That is so not true. A baby has known its mother for nine months, to come out into the world and immediately be taken away from here is several traumatic. It is a primal wound. In years gone by social workers and medics believed as you did, evidenced by a sheet being pulled up to hide a baby from a mother when giving birth if she wasn't going to keep the child, but that has not been the case for many years.

Obviously there are cases when it can't be helped, if mother dies during labour for example, then the surviving adults have to do the very best they can to parent the baby lovingly; at least the child will understand as they grow that his/her mum didn't deliberately abandon and if they are brought up kindly, the wound will be minimal. However we are not talking of cases where there is no choice.

@Lynda07

Primal wound is an excellent way of phrasing it. I personally don’t understand how any woman could grow a baby and then give it up on purpose, and I can’t even begin to think about the trauma to the baby of being separated from its mother.

But then, this is mumsnet where being a mother is exactly the same as being a father and there is no special biological bond whatsoever between mother and baby 😒🙄

I'm shocked at the ignorance some pps display. Total commodification of a child.

I'm sorry, but being desperate to have a child does not mean you get given one. All that love, desperation could be redirected into existing children and families that desperately need support. That's what you would do if it was for children's benefit.

It is a primal wound
Yes.

I don't like surrogacy. It feels intrinsically wrong that someone with enough money can use another human's body to farm themselves a child.

I also disagree strongly that babies removed immediately from birth don't experience trauma; it's categorically untrue. I was removed from my birth family at 3, my younger sister was removed at under 2 hours (I'm one of many) and she has suffered hugely growing up and continues to struggle as an adult. Don't downplay the absolute distress it can cause, please.

I have said this before on surrogacy threads but if women who use donor eggs to conceive are their mothers (ie the genetic material doesn't matter), then surrogates are also the mother, regardless of where the genetic material has come from. The facts don't change because of who is going to end up with the baby.

@Clymene good point

I personally don’t understand how any woman could grow a baby and then give it up on purpose

Money or altruism is my guess. In the case of women who continue with an unwanted pregnancy then have the infant adopted, I presume it's because they are pro-life.

Women become surrogates for a multiplicity of reasons but none of them are in the best interests of the child. As to their rights, there are all sorts of things we can do legally but aren't actually a great idea. We are legally allowed to cycle down a dual carriageway but it isn't a very smart move.

And talking of rights, I believe that commercial surrogacy is in contravention of the UNCRC.

I would absolutely support a legal challenge and am appalled that they uk is not following the rest of the EU in banning surrogacy.

@SapatSea Microchimerism. The transfer of cells between baby and mother across the placenta that may have allsorts of health implications. Most of them seem positive don't they? Or am I not reading that properly, I'm off to bed as I didn't sleep last night so I have possibly got that completely wrong.

@1forsorrow - I saw that documentary. I think the point they were making was the trauma of being separated from each other was accute for the brothers. Not of being separated from their mother.

Most people don't have children for the benefit of the child, though, surely? Having children is inherently selfish and generally done to fulfil a need in the parent(s).

Oh you argue the philosophy all you like. And to an extent I agree. But.

But.

There is an assumption that birth parents will love and care for their children because of the biological bond and that's why people have children. And that being raised by birth parents is in the best interest of the child. Having a child yo sell to another person is not just not in the child's best interests, it directly contravenes them.

Whether having children at all is a selfish act is debatable I suppose, but babies want their mothers. We all know this. Deliberately making a baby in order to take it away from the only person it wants, is completely and utterly selfish and cruel. That is before you even get to the ethics of using the body of a woman living in poverty, who may have had minimal education.
I know of a male couple who chose a specific country for their babies because it was “the cheapest”. This is buying and selling women and babies.
I feel very sorry for anyone who wants a child and is unable to conceive, but we can’t get everything we want no matter what the cost to someone else.
Surrogacy should be banned.

@SirVixofVixHall

Completely agree. It’s not something I ever felt strongly about, but now I’ve had a baby and seen/felt the enormous bond and pull between us from birth, and his huge, natural attachment to me, I think it’s extremely wrong on every level.

Look at this!

Can anyone think for a moment that this is an acceptable situation? Text book route to attachment and development problems.

One father went to collect the baby without his wife because of her work obligations. He now can't leave. I can't imagine not going to collect my baby because of work.

news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-dozens-of-babies-stranded-without-parents-due-to-border-closures-11988587

@1forsorrow, the relevance of chimerism isn't whether it's positive or negative, it's about the intimate bond between the baby and the person whose womb they were in. The mum and unborn baby literally swap genetic material. That's a very concrete connection to simply dismiss.

'Human farming' ffs

Human farming' ffs

Yes, it is a very apt term, right? The whole business is disgusting isn't it?

It is exactly that - Loop holes in India's law let non citzen's "adopt" the baby they have paid for through surrogacy ( even though only citzens can legally use surrogates). Cheapest is using IVF where the uneducated exploited surrogate is impregnated, local selected egg donor doubles the cost and premium caucasian egg most expensive of all.

picklemewalnuts
51 made to order babies in a country with over 100,000 children in orphanages desperate for homes.

Is there any conclusive evidence that removing children from their birth mother actually causes trauma? If so, how has this been separated from other factors if scientists don’t know why some people suffer from MH issues when others don’t? My three siblings and I were all removed either at birth or after a few weeks and then placed in foster care for 6 to 9 months before being adopted by our parents. None of us have any issues and we are very close to our parents so it always irks me to read comments that we must be somehow damaged or traumatised by the process.

it always irks me to read comments that we must be somehow damaged or traumatised by the process

And it irks me that some people dismiss my experience in this way.