To feel sorry for these babies

[Hottoddy1]

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/may/14/surrogates-baby-coronavirus-lockdown-parents-surrogacy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The tone of the article seems to just be - oh what a shame that covid happened and this has meant surrogate babies can’t get to their intended parents. Absolutely no concern for firstly the trauma to the babies leaving the caregiver they are bonded with after who knows how long and secondly no acknowledgement that perhaps allowing people to go to other countries and essentially hire women’s bodies and buy babies might have some downsides for both the women and the babies involved.

I suspect the majority of posters opposed to surrogacy have never been faced with the choice of being unhappily childless forever, or using another woman’s womb to make a very much wanted child. Funny that.

I actually think if they legalised and regulated surrogacy in the UK more closely to the US model everyone would be a lot better off. Making it a business transaction with a firm legal framework is actually better for all parties, IMO.

I noticed a PP commented that people donate organs and that's ok.
They aren't allowed to sell them though are they? Or receive compensation for "expenses".

There's a reason for that. We understand that the most vulnerable people in society would be exploited as a result. Why is it ok to exploit vulnerable women to rent out their womb and sell the baby they grew for 9 months?

I suspect the majority of posters opposed to surrogacy have never been faced with the choice of being unhappily childless forever, or using another woman’s womb to make a very much wanted child

A baby is not a right.

Where are the armies of affluent women being surrogates (and prostitutes for that matter)
Women’s bodies shouldn’t be for sale

I agree. When rich women are flocking to be rent their wombs and vaginas out I shall think again. But that will never happen.

And while totally fictional, I'm assuming they do their research, Jo on Grey's anatomy was told by her therapist that when her birth mother let go of her babd as an adult, her body would have remembered her doing that as she was handed over at birth. That is heartbreaking and while often unavoidable and the best option, why would you deliberately set out to do it?

I suspect the majority of posters opposed to surrogacy have never been faced with the choice of being unhappily childless forever, or using another woman’s womb to make a very much wanted child.

You know those aren’t the only two options, right? I mean there are other ways to become a mother to much wanted child. And FTR many women hate being childless and would still never commodify another woman’s body.

PlanDeRaccordement who carried out those surveys? Surrogacy agencies? The fertility industry?

Most industries can produce surveys showing how happy everyone involved in their business is.

It's a massive for profit business in the USA, as is tricking childless young girls on university campuses into taking massive doses of fertility drugs with significant side effects in order to release large numbers of eggs at once, to be sold on. Anyone who has had IVF with their own eggs will have an idea about the side effects even in a best case scenario, but often those girls are stimulated to produce too many eggs and not fully in possession of all the facts about risks and consequences and left with them for life.

Plan
If you're talking about US surrogates, perhaps you should try reading a standard Californian surrogacy contract? Basically all rights to her own body are taken away from the mother.

If the buyers decide that they want to abort, she has to agree or pay back all the costs so far - IVF, check ups etc. This could be aborting for medical reasons, because it's twins and they want to do selective reduction, or any reason they choose.

To a certain extent the buyers actually get a say in any medical decisions that aren't pregnancy related - there's a podcast about a surrogate mother who was told by her doctor that being on the hormones was life threatening, but the buyers still wanted her to stay on them.

A PP mentioned Kim Kardashian as needing surrogacy: well if it's such a fantastic thing to do, why did none of her sisters step up and offer? Could it be because it's the rich taking advantage of the poor?

And has everyone forgotten cases such as Baby Gammy, abandoned because he wasn't perfect?

If the buyers decide that they want to abort, she has to agree or pay back all the costs so far

Sickening.

Surrogacy can be done ethically when properly regulated.

Hands off MY womb. If I want to rent it out to give an infertile couple a chance at parenthood. That is my choice. And I think being compensated for my expenses, time, and suffering through childbirth is my due. It would be exploitation to expect me to not only do this, but pay for it as well.

God yes re Kim K.

The Baby Gammy case was heartbreaking.

I have a healthy daughter who is 12 I'm 30 btw.
When my daughter was 2 I was divorced. Already a burden to my culture bound family they decided that I should be a surrogate to my elder sister because she was infertile. I'd be a good "muslim" if I did bla bla and why should my perfectly healthy womb go to waste?
I know I know it was my choice but anyways I went along with it.

At 35 weeks, I lost the baby and my womb. The baby was stillborn and when I went through the labour, it was so traumatic and life risking, ended up losing 3 litres of blood and need an emergency hysterectomy.

10 years later. My sister doesn't speak to me and my family say I'm cursed. Sister ended up being divorced and now lives at home.

I fortunately went on with my daughter escaped that lifestyle and made a good life for us. I also have a partner with 1 step son. I'm happy

This is what can happen, I was on deaths bed. I believe you should accept what nature has given you. There are plenty of children without a home that need one.

Do you consider the baby PlandeRaccordement?

No you’re trying to shut down the discussion. If you werent then what was your aim in letting us all know that there are surrogates or recipients of surrogate babies on MN and that It’s not a “nice” thread?

I mean that’s not you sharing your opinion on surrogacy is it?

I don't really know why you're telling me I'm wrong to try and "shut down the discussion" while at the same time trying to tell me what I'm allowed to give an opinion on.

In my opinion it is not a nice thread. Maybe I should have said 'kind' instead of nice. It's not helpful to anyone. The OP didn't ask for advice or people's experiences, she didn't say she's debating surrogacy herself and needs advice for example. The post read, to me, as essentially just an invitation to judge. So my aim in saying what I said was to remind people to be empathetic to others' lived experiences. It's unfortunate that you've taken umbrage to that but I don't feel that there's anything wrong with what I said.

I've seen plenty of similar posts on MN descend into horrible, dirt slinging, mum shaming, name calling clusterfucks (I would use a better word if I could think of one!) and yes, I would really like to try to help avoid those because they're awful. Obviously most people here seem to not be doing that so 👍

Survey was carried out by Erika L. Fuchs, PhD, MPH and Abbey B. Berenson, MD, PhD, MMS and published in JOURNAL OF WOMEN’S HEALTH Volume 27, Number 5, 2018
a Mary Ann Liebert, Inc.
DOI: 10.1089/jwh.2017.6540

So my aim in saying what I said was to remind people to be empathetic to others' lived experiences

Except if you are an adult who has lived through and had to deal with the trauma of being taken from your birth mother, right?

Yes I consider the baby.
The baby is going to a family that emotionally wants him/her and is also their biological parents. The family will also have the financial security to meet the baby’s needs until adulthood.

Except if you are an adult who has lived through and had to deal with the trauma of being taken from your birth mother, right?

What? I think we should try to be empathetic to everyone's lived experiences. I'm sorry if that didn't come across.

Obviously most people here seem to not be doing that so 👍

So that onslaught you anticipated then...

If someone posts something out of order you report it. You don’t try and shut the thread down just because it exists. That’s two different things. You don’t have to like the topic being discussed or the opinions being posted- that’s a cue for you to either engage with your counter opinions or avoid the thread.

You may not like the idea of surrogacy or want to be one yourself, but what gives you the right to police other womens choices when the evidence shows that the vast majority of surrogate mothers are happy with their decision?

Even if surveys said 100% of surrogates and intended parents loved every minute of it I would still be against it. They aren't the only people involved.

Plan, do you not acknowledge the separation post birth as a trauma for the child that can effect them at a later stage?

So that onslaught you anticipated then... hmm

If someone posts something out of order you report it. You don’t try and shut the thread down just because it exists. That’s two different things. You don’t have to like the topic being discussed or the opinions being posted- that’s a cue for you to either engage with your counter opinions or avoid the thread.

Yes the onslaught didn't happen, that's great. With all due respect, if I don't like a thread I can still comment on it if I want to. Reporting it is actually more likely to shut a thread down than commenting.

“If the buyers decide that they want to abort, she has to agree or pay back all the costs so far - IVF, check ups etc. This could be aborting for medical reasons, because it's twins and they want to do selective reduction, or any reason they choose.”

I think you have miswritten this.
In the contracts, I have read if an abortion happens at the request of the parents to be, then they do NOT get any money back from the surrogate mother.
First, no contract can require the surrogate mother to get an abortion if the parents to be request. That is legally not enforceable in the US. It has to be by mutual agreement. If the parents to be want an abortion, but the surrogate mother decides not to have an abortion but carry the baby to term, then she is liable for all expenses after that decision point. She is not liable to pay any money back.

if I don't like a thread I can still comment on it if I want to

Yes be the thread police if you like. Free world and all that. Go to town.

Done.