AIBU - partner wants me to stop speaking Italian with my mum

[countrywalks1]

AIBU? Me and my partner have been staying at my mum's flat because of covid issues. She told me after 2 days here that she feels it's rude that I speak Italian with mum in front of her as she doesn't know what's going on and doesn't understand the language. I replied saying I understand it must be frustrating not to know, especially as she's the kind of person who likes to know everything, and the pandemic is really tough on her as she's homesick and hasn't been home properly for months, so I can understand why as she says she feels excluded.

However, my counterpoint was that I usually (about 60%) talk with mum in Italian. Culturally, I would say I'm half British and half Italian - I've mostly grown up in the UK but was born and most of my extended family are and live in Italy. I speak Italian fluently, but if I don't speak it regularly it gets a bit worse as I get out of practice with tenses and conjugations etc.

So I speak Italian with my mum because: 1) for me it's the language we've always communicated; 2) it makes me feel more connected with my Italian culture; 3) it pleases me to practice it; 4) I'm pretty sure my mum prefers talking to me in Italian than in English as she doesn't really get to speak it with anyone after my granddad (her dad) passed away a few years ago as did my very bilingually fluent brother. It's complicated I know!!!!

So told this to my partner, she says she appreciates the reasoning but still unnecessary to speak it when she's there as it feels she's excluded. I told her I understand why but I struggle to understand why she couldn't move past it as I've been in the same situation with friends speaking a language I don't understand where I just talk English when I can, or ask what's going on. The other thing is that usually my mum will save talking to me in Italian for mum things like telling me off or telling me to do something. I emphasised that we're never using it to talk about her or be nasty, and we kind of slip into it naturally.

Still she says she feels excluded, which at this point I understand. She was also in my opinion a bit nasty and in anger said we moved over here to the UK and chose to stay so we shouldn't really be talking Italian anymore anyway, we should be British. This I put down to anger that I wasn't understanding her point of view. In her defence she did also say I could speak it if I taught her Italian, although I struggle that the emphasis is on me to teach her when we have been together for 8 years and even gone over to visit my Italian relatives in Italy and been to weddings etc - without ever having tried to learn. Albeit we've been doing vocational education together throughout this time so many other important things to learn.

So last night I worked really hard to make sure I spoke only in English with everyone, so when mum asked me something in Italian I actively made sure to reply in English.

I just need to know AIBU in feeling disappointed? I understand my partner's frustration, and I can try to cut down on the Italian for a little while because of the circumstances - it's tough being homesick and then not even being able to understand the conversation where you are. It's just the request that I cut down on speaking Italian with my mum when she's also there - as I told her, I expect that I will always see mum with her (we're planning on getting married). I also feel that she's asking me to hide away (in the context of communicating with mum) a little part of my own culture. Therefore, AIBU to not let this lie?

Ah, yes. I find that just thinking about learning a different language seems to be a lot of effort for many native English speakers.

I'm sure it is a lot of effort for many people and has nothing to do with whether they are "native English speakers" unless you are suggesting we are inferior to non native English speakers in some way.

The fact that she doesn't have an interest in learning some italian would be a problem for me. Couples should both learn from each other (be that a language, cooking or interests) so they can become a tighter couple. It sounds like you have to adjust to her but she refuses to adjust to you. I'd have another think about the marriage plans if I were you.

If your partner wanted to learn Italian then she'd spend more attention listening to it be spoken. I'm bilingual while my children's father isn't and through listening to my other language they've picked up the vocabulary and worked out the patterns in grammar so know how to string them together.

I'm surprised that she's not started to learn tbh If you have kids surely you'd want to teach them and speak to them in Italian too?
Your partner is not unreasonable to worry that you're bitching about her but she's made some racist comments.

Your dp needs to learn the language. My dp is also Italian and can imagine his face if I told him to speak to family in English . I speak reasonably well, not totally fluently, but I learnt because it was a jar for dp to have to keep translating when I went over to visit family in Italy. Also because I am nosey and didn’t want o miss anything.

She essentially said: "You are in Britain, so speak British!". That is pretty racist. It is also about embarrassing that she hasn't bothered to learn any Italian. It does sound like she would veto you teaching any kids Italian.

I think you and your mum should make every effort to speak in English when your partner is in the room, and save the Italian conversations for when she’s not. It’s uncomfortable to be in a room and not understand what’s being said, even if you know it’s not about you.
But I also think after all this time, your partner should be attempting to learn some Italian. So can’t you compromise and suggest that, a bit of leeway on both parts?

I think if you are both speaking Italian all the time, it's rude. If it's only maybe half of the time, it's fine. For her to say something she must feel pretty excluded, so I'm guessing it's all the time.

She needs to learn.
That is the bottom line.

Why? You may have wanted to learn your DH's language but why is it something that people should have to do? My DH's language is not a useful language that is spoken by many people and I wasn't going to spend huge amounts of time learning it just so his family (who are all bilingual) didn't have to bother speaking English in my presence.

Absolutely, the Dc question is irrelevant.

Why should the DP learn Italian? The OP said herself she doesn't use it.

A few phrases of basic tourist Italilan, as someone pointed out, is a million mile away from keeping up with a latin language (often with local dialect) at dinner.

I know, I speak 3 languages, the variation between districts is amazing.

Don't be afraid to ask people to slow down

Don't worry, I'm not - I always do it with a smile too, but it just doesn't always work!!

Still, as you say, I suppose it's a compliment if my French convinces them I'm more fluent than I thought. I remember fondly 6 weeks spent in rural Normandy, and the local grocer where only French was used ... until the last day, when he broke into perfect English

Of course I laughed and asked "why didn't you tell me?", only to receive a perfect gallic shrug and "pourquoi?"

It’s really rude and unkind to exclude your partner. Yes, she should learn Italian but that isn’t going to happen overnight so you need to stop talking in Italian in front of her-it’s hugely disrespectful and I would be reviewing our relationship if you continued to do it when I had pointed out it upset me.

Generally, it is rude to talk in a language that others don't understand, when you are able to talk in their language.

In this situation, it is a little different, as it's for the longer term. Can you agree a compromise, eg speaking English together at set meal times? It's very excluding otherwise.

It's easy to say 'learn the language', but it's not that simple. I speak several languages, and enjoy learning them, but I was fortunate to grow up bilingual. For others, who grew up only speaking one language, it can be very different. My dad spent years trying to learn my mother's mother tongue, but was never able to pick it up in any meaningful way.

In our extended family, half cab speak welsh and half can't or aren't fluent. If someone is present who doesn't speak welsh, then we all speak English, even if they're not involved in the conversation - unless it's just a quick "pass the salt". However I would make sure that you and your mum have some alone time where you can speak Italian freely.

I think you're being rude, as talking in Italian excludes her from the conversation. But if she has made no attempt to learn the language, then she can't really complain - that's hugely disrespectful.

Still, as you say, I suppose it's a compliment if my French convinces them I'm more fluent than I thought. I remember fondly 6 weeks spent in rural Normandy, and the local grocer where only French was used ... until the last day, when he broke into perfect English

Hah! That's really nice though. If someone is in a foreign country and making an effort to speak the local language then they should be encouraged. He did the right thing.

I'm never quite sure what to do when I'm in Paris and English or American tourists stop me and ask for directions in halting French. It would make more sense to say, "Don't worry, I'm English"' and then speak to them in English, but since they've made the effort I usually speak back in fairly simple French and don't let on.

Huge red flag! She's being immature.

One of my greatest loves was my Welsh boyfriend, from Cardiff, whose parents were Italian. I loved hearing him speak with his mum and dad in Italian.
I learned Italian and although we broke up, I ended up living in Italy in my 20s, working there and just loving it. I am almost 50, still friends with my dear ex-boyfriend (I don't even consider him an ex, he's just a great person I'm so lucky to have as a friend) and still dear friends with all of my Italian 'family' in Reggio Emilia and Milan. Speaking that language made my life bloom in ways I cannot describe.
Your partner is being silly. Sorry. I'd be rethinking this entire relationship. She just sounds silly and controlling. This is who you are, OP. She should love this about you, not try and erase it. I never understand people who think it's rude if others communicate in their native tongue, especially inside their home.

So I speak Italian with my mum because: 1) for me it's the language we've always communicated; 2) it makes me feel more connected with my Italian culture; 3) it pleases me to practice it; 4) I'm pretty sure my mum prefers talking to me in Italian than in English as she doesn't really get to speak it with anyone after my granddad (her dad) passed away a few years ago as did my very bilingually fluent brother. It's complicated I know!!!!

The first three justifications where all about you. The 4th was a suspected, but not confirmed preference about your mother.

Not great.

Had your first choice been 'because it is easier for my mother to understand', it would have sounded much better.

I think your partner is the rude one here. If your DM has nobody else to speak her own language with, it would be really wrong and harsh to deprive her of this comfort. Your DP has had eight years to learn without apparently showing much interest or making much effort. That and her opinion that everyone should speak English in England is quite narrow-minded and verges on xenophobic. Was she Alf Garnett in another life, or was she raised by him?!

What if you were to teach her a few simple phrases, like good morning, did you sleep well, how are you, would you like a cuppa, can I help, I'm off to bed etc so she could make a nice gesture and join in? Woukd she be up for this?

Likewise, when you and your DM are chatting - please don't stop - coukd you turn now and then and just give the gist, as in "Mum's reminiscing about her childhood, " or "I'm teasing mum about her love of chocolate," or whatever? Her biggest fear is likely to be that you're discussing her. It is what makes monoglot people the most twitchy, however silly and unlikely it may be.

If your DP despises your culture rather than embracing it, you need to think long and hard about whether she is the right one. If you were to have children in the future it must be with someone who is eager to raise them as bilingual with all the many advantages that brings. Have you asked her how she thinks she would feel if you and your future child by her were chatting in Italian?! That will tell you what you need too know.

I think there is room for compromise here, and your partner currently isn't making any.

Yes, it's not nice to have people converse in a language you don't understand in front of you - of course that's exclusionary!
BUT if you've been with your partner for as long as you've been together, then the sensible thing would be to fucking LEARN some of their native tongue. It's not like it's Kyrgyzstani, or Hungarian - it's Italian!

So in all honesty she should get over herself and take it upon herself to learn Italian - because at the moment she has the best opportunity to practise it and pick up conversational Italian, with 2 of you in the house!

She's being very dog-in-the-mangerish about it.

However, while she can't understand Italian, it's probably politer for you and your Mum to stick to English wherever possible so that she doesn't get the hump.

I'd be very disappointed in her if she didn't make an attempt to learn Italian though.

“In her defence she did also say I could speak it if I taught her Italian, although I struggle that the emphasis is on me to teach her when we have been together for 8 years and even gone over to visit my Italian relatives in Italy and been to weddings etc - without ever having tried to learn.”

This is the problem. You’re a native speaker but you don’t want to teach her your language?

I was in her position with my ex-husband. His first language isn’t English but he couldn’t be bothered to teach it to me. When I asked him to, he bought me a translation dictionary and a “teach yourself” dvd. The really galling thing was that his English wasn’t very good when we met and improved massively because he was speaking it with me, but he was too lazy to return the favour. So our children don’t speak it because we only spoke English at home and he couldn't be bothered to teach it to them either.

He used to speak it with others in front of me and sorry but yes, it is rude.

Your partner is right, it's really rude to talk to someone in another language and exclude other people in the room. You can perfectly well speak Italian to your mother when you're alone with her.

@mrpumblechook
I'm sure it is a lot of effort for many people and has nothing to do with whether they are "native English speakers" unless you are suggesting we are inferior to non native English speakers in some way.

Even the name "non native English speakers" suggests these are people who already speak at least two languages. So they already made "a lot of effort" to learn a foreign language.

she lives with you both in lockdown and despite you and your mother both being fluent in English you spend 60% of your time talking in Italian knowing your partner has no clue what you’re saying? So 60% of the time you exclude your partner from your conversations? That’s rude as fuck. I’m not surprised she’s upset.

I think speaking to your mother alone in Italian is fine when you’re fiancé isn’t present, but to spend most of the time talking in an language your partner can’t understand when she’s stuck in a house with just you two being deliberately excluded from your conversations is cruel and extremely rude.

That. You'll have plenty of chance to talk to your mum in Italian when you're fiancee isn't there.
I've been in the situation that your fiancee is in (though thankfully not for long periods) and it's horrible. It's excluding, and makes one feel a bit lost and insecure. You don't know what to do with yourself while they're talking. And there's no excuse when your mum speaks English anyway. Your reasons for 'needing' to speak Italian, are selfish and really aren't needs, but preferences.

As for people saying she should learn - well yes. But that's not helping in this situation right now, is it? The woman's in lockdown with two people who are deliberately choosing to exclude her, and she has nowhere else to go.

He did the right thing

I know, but it didn't stop me feeling an utter fool!!

I'm never quite sure what to do when I'm in Paris and English or American tourists stop me and ask for directions in halting French

Tell me about it - I had this in Bayeux and explained to them in simple French that actually I was English myself but could fortunately answer their question. A sort of race followed between their brain and their expression which I empathised with only too well

Why should she learn Italian? Her partner said themselves they rarely ever use it, which is why they’re speaking it so much in lockdown? Why go to great efforts (and learning a new language as an adult is a great effort to many) to learn a language your partner rarely ever uses, and is not used in the country she lives in?

Just because her partner can speak another language does not mean she’s rude or lazy for not trying to become fluent in it. One of my friends speaks Arabic very occasionally to her family, as they’re all fluent in English, is her boyfriend of 4 years lazy for not attempting to learn it? It’s not as simple as just listening to fluent speakers, yes you might pick up on a few words and phrases, but they still won’t understand most of what is said, if it was that simple, people would just move to Italy for a few months and come back fluent. It takes a lot of effort and exposure to learn a language as an adult and tbh I don’t see the point when her partner under normal circumstances rarely speaks it.

I was learning French three times a week for 5 years and still only have a very low level of understanding, I watch a lot of French films and I can understand basic words and some phrases, but I cannot participate in conversations, and that’s after many years of teaching.