AIBU - partner wants me to stop speaking Italian with my mum

[countrywalks1]

AIBU? Me and my partner have been staying at my mum's flat because of covid issues. She told me after 2 days here that she feels it's rude that I speak Italian with mum in front of her as she doesn't know what's going on and doesn't understand the language. I replied saying I understand it must be frustrating not to know, especially as she's the kind of person who likes to know everything, and the pandemic is really tough on her as she's homesick and hasn't been home properly for months, so I can understand why as she says she feels excluded.

However, my counterpoint was that I usually (about 60%) talk with mum in Italian. Culturally, I would say I'm half British and half Italian - I've mostly grown up in the UK but was born and most of my extended family are and live in Italy. I speak Italian fluently, but if I don't speak it regularly it gets a bit worse as I get out of practice with tenses and conjugations etc.

So I speak Italian with my mum because: 1) for me it's the language we've always communicated; 2) it makes me feel more connected with my Italian culture; 3) it pleases me to practice it; 4) I'm pretty sure my mum prefers talking to me in Italian than in English as she doesn't really get to speak it with anyone after my granddad (her dad) passed away a few years ago as did my very bilingually fluent brother. It's complicated I know!!!!

So told this to my partner, she says she appreciates the reasoning but still unnecessary to speak it when she's there as it feels she's excluded. I told her I understand why but I struggle to understand why she couldn't move past it as I've been in the same situation with friends speaking a language I don't understand where I just talk English when I can, or ask what's going on. The other thing is that usually my mum will save talking to me in Italian for mum things like telling me off or telling me to do something. I emphasised that we're never using it to talk about her or be nasty, and we kind of slip into it naturally.

Still she says she feels excluded, which at this point I understand. She was also in my opinion a bit nasty and in anger said we moved over here to the UK and chose to stay so we shouldn't really be talking Italian anymore anyway, we should be British. This I put down to anger that I wasn't understanding her point of view. In her defence she did also say I could speak it if I taught her Italian, although I struggle that the emphasis is on me to teach her when we have been together for 8 years and even gone over to visit my Italian relatives in Italy and been to weddings etc - without ever having tried to learn. Albeit we've been doing vocational education together throughout this time so many other important things to learn.

So last night I worked really hard to make sure I spoke only in English with everyone, so when mum asked me something in Italian I actively made sure to reply in English.

I just need to know AIBU in feeling disappointed? I understand my partner's frustration, and I can try to cut down on the Italian for a little while because of the circumstances - it's tough being homesick and then not even being able to understand the conversation where you are. It's just the request that I cut down on speaking Italian with my mum when she's also there - as I told her, I expect that I will always see mum with her (we're planning on getting married). I also feel that she's asking me to hide away (in the context of communicating with mum) a little part of my own culture. Therefore, AIBU to not let this lie?

I’m a bit split on this. I speak a few different languages but grew up and still live in a monolingual household.
I think in lockdown it’s probably a bit different and people’s feeling are heightened as others have said.
Personally I love learning languages and feel silly when others have to switch from a language they would normally use because I don’t understand though I can’t know every language so when it’s Icelandic or Arabic something I think I’m justified and don’t feel as bad. Because I love languages I also like sharing other languages spoken around me whether or not I understand them.
But if this was everyday with close family I might feel excluded.
But my main puzzle is why your partner has not learned sufficient Italian to at least get the gist of what you’re saying after so many years together, or to grasp the tone and therefore understand the type of conversation it is.
Not everyone is a great linguist though British people often underestimate their abilities because we can afford not to try so hard. But she has a motive and an opportunity. Maybe she feels silly that she can’t pick it up quickly or that she has to learn at all when you just “know”?
In my experience people kick off and start seeming unreasonable when they feel stupid and are actually angry (in part with themselves for not “getting” something). Hence the silly comments about being British.
So I can see both sides but maybe she’s feeling hurt/undermined and trying to defend herself as best she can (albeit in a fairly rubbish way).
Italian is pretty easy until the higher levels and native speakers aren’t always the best teachers. I like the Teach Yourself books better than apps like Duolingo which seem more like passing a game to me but whatever works, she may need to play around to find her style.

How many people saying "well, it's a bit rude you're in England now" think the same thing should apply if the couple had settled in Italy instead? Should the dp have had to agree never to speak English again? Not to teach it to their children? Not to speak to an elderly relative or a friend in English where the OP might overhear? HOW MANY ENGLISH PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO THIS??? LIKE EVER??? ANYWHERE???

I am very glad I married an Englishman who accepted that I and my culture were half of this marriage, that settling in his country was one of the choices we could have made, that if we had settled in my country then any expectations he had of me in current circumstances would have had to apply to him, that any children we had would be have half their heritage from me, and that it was his responsibility to work on his Swedish as I had worked on my English. Yes, I helped him but no one will learn a foreign language if they don't put some hard work in. It also made him aware how much ongoing work I have to put into adapt to his culture, understand the jokes grounded in his childhood and the childhoods of other people like him, make conversation in ways that make him and his family feel at ease, bring my children up to behave according to the norms of his culture.

YANBU.

She had 8, EIGHT years to start learning Italian. She made no effort, even though she has a native speaker always available.
Now she has TWO native speakers available and she's still not making any effort.

[...] usually my mum will save talking to me in Italian for mum things like telling me off or telling me to do something. I emphasised that we're never using it to talk about her or be nasty, and we kind of slip into it naturally.

She's a guest in your mum's home and still making demands because she feels excluded from your private conversations with your mum? Seriously?

She was also in my opinion a bit nasty and in anger said we moved over here to the UK and chose to stay so we shouldn't really be talking Italian anymore anyway, we should be British.

That wasn't "a bit nasty", that was intentionally offensive.

@Elsiebear90
Also, people saying it’s her fault for not learning Italian, you do realise learning languages as an adult is incredibly difficult?

Yes, it's her fault if she didn't even try.
No, it's not "incredibly difficult". If she started at the beginning of lockdown, she'd be able to follow a basic conversation by now - as I'm pretty sure OP and mum would happily speak clearly and slowly.

@SoupDragon
What a missed opportunity to learn another language . She has the chance to turn what she sees as a negative into a positive. Marriage to her would be an utter disaster .

This would be totally understandable if your mother couldn't speak in English, but sounds like she easily can. So I agree with the consensus- it is rude.

Maybe about 10% of the time - side remarks/ or little diversions that comes naturally in Italian, but you should make an effort to translate/ explain when that happens. Anymore, and the question is why DON'T you want your partner involved in the conversations? You really are excluding her....

And yes it would be nice if she learned Italian, but if the whole of your main family are bilingual, I don't think it is an obligation for her.

The partner has that utterly lazy English attitude to languages. Not particularly attractive. Far, far into the future when the OP's Italian speaking family have passed on, she will not have that connection anymore if her partner is too lazy to learn, which would be such a shame.

Plus, Italian, of all the European languages is not so hard. Ten minutes a day on Duolingo and she'd get somewhere.

we moved over here to the UK and chose to stay so we shouldn't really be talking Italian anymore anyway, we should be British.

There is so much wrong with this that I wouldn't consider marrying someone that said this.

It’s not a red flag. I think you need to be in the position to know how it feels. As long as you make an effort to speak English sometimes I think that’s fair enough. I can see how some people may find it rude, I had similar situation with my ex. It’s not that I minded so much but if somebody speaks in another language constantly there’s literally no point of you been in the room. To be fair to you though I can see how it’s easier to speak to your mum in Italian.

I think you are being very rude. My partner's mother talks constantly to him in her mother tongue but her English is poor. It is very boring to be in the presence of but not her fault. The fact you are choosing to do this is obnoxious.

I guess it is a matter of finding a compromise, you can translate for her when she gets stuck, or you all speak English when you are doing something together Like eating, playing a game, etc. But for trivial comments and conversations you are having with your mum your partner has to respect the culture of her hosts, she cannot díctate everybody has to speak English because she doesn’t understand Italian. Mind you is ok for her to expect English spoken for a once in a blue moon party but not for a live in situation.

She should be making all efforts to learn Italian imo!!.

THIS ^

For so many reasons - not just to know what's going on. It's a beautiful language, it does everybody good to "stretch their brain" a bit, she could use it on holiday, and it would show respect and consideration to you and your DM to even try.

Tell her you are in your DM's Italian-speaking home, and suggest that she make the effort to learn.

There are free online courses eg Duolingo that she could access.

If you can all speak English why would you talk to your mum in a language one person can't understand. I think it's very rude and now she's asked you not to you should stop

I sometimes can feel cross I’m making the effort to have Cantonese lessons but no once makes the effort with me to at least use a little English to make me feel welcome and wanted

As with the PP who's ex's relatives spoke only Welsh throughout Christmas, I find this very unkind. Without denying anyone their culture for an instant, surely it's possible to be a bit more giving to those who don't share it, even if just to be hospitable?

I've mentioned this before, but one of the loveliest examples of good manners I ever heard was from a group of Russian visitors. Not being familiar with the language I was looking forward to hearing some - maybe even picking up a few words - but they spoke only English, even to each other
When someone eventually asked why, they explained they didn't want to cause any discomfort or awkwardness

It's extremely rude. I have much experience of this sort of exclusive behaviour (I even understand the language in question)

It's a horrible feeling. When everyone is fluent in English (or whatever language), they should speak English (or whatever language) if around the dinner table etc. If that is the common denominator.

When I had a baby, I loved that my partner spoke a different language to her and actively championed it, so she is no fully bilingual. But now she is 12, I expect, when I have cooked a family meal, to speak in the language common/easiest to all of us.

It's simple manners in a truly bilingual household.

I think you are being a bit unreasonable and should aim to speak your common language (English) when you are all sitting together or in the same room. It is very uncomfortable to feel that you know/understand nothing of what is being said around you. On the other hand, your girlfriend should be tolerant of snatches of Italian coming out here and there even when you are together, as it is your Mum's first language.

To all those saying that the girlfriend is 'lazy' or unreasonable for not having learned Italian - it really isn't that easy to learn languages to the level of conversational fluency. I went to 2 hour Italian lessons every week for a year and emerged with a Level 1 certificate - that is pre-GCSE level. I was probably one of the more confident students in the class but I was only really equipped to speak very basic tourist Italian. Whereas the OP and his mother would be speaking conversational vernacular, possibly even a dialect, with all the contractions, slang and familiarities we use when speaking with a close family member. She would need to study for years to get anywhere near it and I doubt that the OP and his mum would want to slow/simplify their conversation down to that kind of level, because then it wouldn't be chatting would it...

I think it’s rude if it’s in front of her and she can’t understand it.

I think it's important for you and your mum to be able to speak Italian together. Would your partner be interested in learning Italian if you make an effort to teach her? Learning another language is a wonderful thing and I think it's a bit of a shame if you've been together for that length of time and she hasn't learned even a little bit.

Maybe she feels silly that she can’t pick it up quickly or that she has to learn at all when you just “know”?

This rings a bell with me. Though my dh has been very open to my culture and very willing to put in the work, he still tends to forget that knowledge of English culture, the way people think, the unspoken codes, the references to popular culture, the way jokes are constructed, memories of minor British politicians of the 60s (= things that don't make world history) are all things I have had to learn and if he is able to carry on talking without adaptation, without checking whether I understand, that is precisely because of work that I have put in and am still putting in. If he doesn't recognise that, then he is basically erasing the effort I am putting into our relationship.

The British have a tendency to believe that the slightest aspect of British culture are so normal and so interesting and so generally known to the rest of the world that you just can't be unaware of them: surely they have to be everybody's normality. My BIL once asked my brother in earnest if they actually spoke Swedish at home. I had a lecturer at uni who had come from a British university, was married to a Swede, after a decade in the country not only insisted in lecturing in his own language but made typical donnish jokes rooted in Oxbridge culture and just expected everybody to understand.

The answer of course is that the OP or her mum don't "just know". They know insofar as somebody has put the work in. And their own language is still part of their identity. If the dp cares about her partner's identity, she should show some interest in it.

It would be a great opportunity for your partner to learn a new language and I agree it's a shame she hasn't done so, but that doesn't alter the fact that if all three of you are in the room and you and your mum are speaking a language she doesn't understand then you are both just downright bloody rude. By all means, keep up your language and chat when it's just the two of you, but to exclude your partner when she is right there is unbelievably disrespectful.

It's not clear to me if Italian is your first language? I've never heard anyone who is bilingual refer to needing to use their first language to prevent themselves becoming rusty. MIL has been speaking English almost constantly for 40 years, including at home, but she has absolutely no problem reverting to her native tongue with complete fluency at any time.

If it IS your first language, and you and your family have routinely communicated in Italian, then yes, your partner should have made at least some effort to learn it.

However, YABU and very rude. For two people who speak one language talking in that language while the other person just sits there is unacceptable. If you are in the kitchen with your mum and she's in another room, sure, speak Italian. But during meals or whatever it's astonishingly rude.

I think there's an enormous difference between never speaking Italian in front of her (which is an unreasonable demand) and soaking it when she is the only person in a lockdown who doesn't understand it. That's very different from a bunch of friends occasional doing it when they occasionally meet up. Lockdown is a novel situation, and very difficult for everyone anyway. She's in someone else's house, so that is further disruption. And then you and your mum talk in a language that she didn't understand, and she's effectively trapped inside listening to things she can't understand. I can see her point of view if that's the case.

I'm so on the fence I've got splinter's. I agree with other posters that talking another language in front of someone who doesn't understand is rude. But at the same time, being with someone with a different mother language for 8 years and not bothering to learn any of it is also pretty poor.

What's she going to do if you have children? Best advice for bilingual kids is both parents using their mother language exclusively with the child. Maintaining both languages is also considered very important for the emotional wellbeing of children from mixed cultures.

To all those saying that the girlfriend is 'lazy' or unreasonable for not having learned Italian - it really isn't that easy to learn languages to the level of conversational fluency.

So if you married an Italian and moved to Italy, would you accept them not even trying to learn your language and not allowing you to speak English to your family or to your children where they could hear it?

She needs to learn Italian ASAP. If it was me I would be putting time every day into that, and yes I know it's hard to learn another language as an adult. But she should make a big effort at the very least.

My mother's family speak a language Dad and I don't. When Dad is with us they speak English (they live in an English speaking country and are completely fluent).

When Dad isn't there they refuse to speak English and speak the other language. Mum has to put her foot down and insist on speaking English as I don't understand their language. As soon as Mum leaves the room they switch languages and completely exclude me. They hate English people (I'm English) and boycotted Mum's wedding as Dad is English. They can't bear to visit England, and so never visited us when I was a child and they wouldn't travel to England to attend my wedding either.

They have actively said that they don't love me as much as their other grandchildren simply because I can't speak their language.

Apparently it's my fault they and my mother never taught me their language as a child, I have learning difficulties and wouldn't be able to teach myself the language without help. And they wonder why I haven't seen them for almost 15 years!

It's sad as the constant negativity and pressure to learn the language as a child, but off my own steam, not through being taught, which completely turned me off from that aspect of my cultural heritage. All they did was put me off learning the language as why would I want to make the effort to learn just to speak to people who look down on me?

I find it very rude to exclude someone from conversation when you all have a language in common. I think it's fine to speak Italian to your Mum when your partner is in another room, say if she's working and you and Mum are watching TV. But when you're all together at the dinner table etc. all you're doing is excluding her from the conversation, which is rude.

Your DP's comment about being British now is bang out of order though. You need to have a good chat, did she say it in frustration at feeling excluded, or does she have that as an underlying attitude?

You need to think carefully about marriage and children. I grew up with the non-English side of my family hating English people, and it's horrible being rejected by family because of what country you happened to have been born in. If there's any whiff of xenophobia from your DP run, it's not fair on the kids.

said we moved over here to the UK and chose to stay so we shouldn't really be talking Italian anymore anyway, we should be British

You have a racist girlfriend.

Time for her to fuck off home.

Before she tells you and your Mum to do it.