Honest Advice please

[emz771]

I have read MN for years - but never joined. I think sometimes it's good to get some third party advice so please help ladies.

Ok so just over 3 years ago my sister split with her husband. He wasn't very good with money and as such she didn't come out with anything. My husband is in property and said she could live in a property we have. We said (and the wording is important) it's yours rent free for as long as you need it.

Anyway about 18 months ago my sister met a man who is a really nice guy. He is great with her kids, is good company, and we often have a pub lunch with the kids or a dog walk on a Sunday and he treats her and the kids really well.

However about 8 months ago he moved in with my sister and my husband presumed that when he moved in we would get some offer of rent. To put into context he is an engineer for BT and does quite a bit of overtime and we understand he is on about 45k a year. My sister works part time as a secretary and earns about 16k a year. So they are a 60K household with no rent/mortgage.

Now it's been griping at my husband for some time - and yesterday he actually got really annoyed. This is going to sound silly but because he is still working my husband asked him to pick up some steaks from a farm shop he passes and leave on our door step. He did - but then my sister messaged me that night and said the steaks were £32. My husband who is a calm man lost it - and claimed he lives in our property that we could rent for £1500 a month and can't shout us a few steaks.

Now I need to say my sister is my best friend in the entire world - and it's not the money with my husband but the fact he feels this guy is taking the mick. The house would rent for £1500 - but I know my husband would let them have it for £800.

Now is it our fault with the wording "have it as long as you want" even though that was when she was a single parent living on a part time wage.I don't want it to affect my relationship with my husband.

Let me know - am I being a cow?

I agree with PP about having a chat first, they could well be saving to buy.

And for what it’s worth, I don’t think your sister was being unreasonable, if you TELL her she can live there for free, why is it so astonishing for her think she can do exactly that? Considering you are well off, she probably doesn’t realise it wasn’t a genuinely open-handed gesture and that your husband resents her so much. If you were changing the terms, you should have said!

I shudder at the thought of a family dynamic where you have to be second-guessing whether people mean what they say and whether gifts are freely being given or not.

And no tenancy agreement just adds to this. If the money is important to you (it clearly is to your husband) then treat it that way and get some clarity and protection. If you’re going to send out signals that “oh it’s nothing, we’re family” (which is what vagueness and no paperwork communicates) then it’s not fair to be seething in the background.

The messages you’re sending your sister are hugely mismatched to your expectations, and that’s very unfair.

It’s time to start communicating properly!

I find your sister behaviour absurdly appalling and selfish. I'm amazed your oh hasn't said something sooner. Talk about taking advantage of people who do an act of kindness.

She and new partner should be ashamed of themselves and you not confronting her about it is sad.

The boyfriend could be a total freeloader, but if your sister is charging him rent and keeping it, asking for rent is going to cause an issue.
It’s not unreasonable to ask for rent, but as you don’t know their circumstances just be aware he may not know and felt justified in asking for the steak money back.

I think your DH has been incredibly patient TBH! Your DS was in difficulties .and he/you both helped them out .All well and good .However she is getting a free ride! I would Email her ,and explain that as she is now living with her DP and has been for some time, you will need some rent! She will not get a better deal elsewhere and she probably knows it!

This is an interesting one for sure.

I think the boyfriend may be getting an unfair time here. On the surface of it yes he's freeloading and it's fairly pisstaking but you don't know what your sister said to him. Maybe she hasn't told him she's not paying rent, maybe he's offered to contribute and she's told him there's no need and you're both happy with the situation as is. The agreement was made with your sister not this other man, so I think the responsibility for the ongoing lack of rental payment really sits with her.

I also think the mistake you and your husband made was presuming anything. Yes your sister should have offered, but there should have been a conversation about it at the time he moved it rather than saying nothing and allowing resentment to build up.

Anyway, glad you're going to sort it now and I agree asking for £1000 rent is very fair.

Although there could be more to the story it sounds as if your sister could work full time if she needs to earn more, and whilst you and your husband are clearly very well off, that doesn't give family members the right to freeload off you for the long term.

Please update us with the outcome when you've spoken to your sister!

To be fair to my sister she works 2.5 days a week. I think that’s enough with a 12 year old, 14 year old, meals to cook, shopping to do etc.

The point is you are well meaning and kind .Maybe you dont need the money but most houses need up keep and so on .We know someone with 10 houses and he doesnt let any of them for free!

You are obviously quite privileged op but to suggest your sister can’t work more than 2.5 days a week because she has a 12 and a 14 yo is just ludicrous

make a tenancy agreement immediately starting from june with the market value-not discounted-.

@Figgygal I agree

I think you have been incredibly kind here, and sound a lovely person. But your sister is taking advantage of this. You say that your properties are for retirement and your children's futures. Even if you don't need the money just now, £1000 a month for what looks like potentially decades is a lot to throw away. I think I would give your sister reasonable notice (even July seems a bit soon, perhaps it could be an incremental thing for a month or two), and charge subsidised rent.

Look even if 1k a month wont make any difference to you ,just put to a charity or something! Why is your DM so involved ? I dont get it .

@emz771 a lot of women hold down full time jobs when they have teenage children.

Can I ask if you have children - if so please don’t tell them that women can’t work full time and have a family. Cooking, cleaning and shopping shouldn’t get in the way of your daughters or nieces career ambitions. And your sons or nephews shouldn’t expect the women in their lives to sacrifice their careers for this.

I remember being about seven and telling my dad I wanted a nice part time job when I grew up just like mum. Dad spent ages explaining that mum was only doing this temporarily and women should never be minuted by domestic responsibilities. Mum went back to her career full time pretty soon afterwards.

It is such a clear memory, I was sitting in the back of the car, I even remember what road we were parked on and what shop were were outside.

I will ask for rent - but not going to ask for a tenancy agreement

This would protect her and you. You’d be mad, especially with 4 kids, not to protect an investment. Until recently, she’s been paying private school fees? Yet no rent?!

To be fair to my sister she works 2.5 days a week. I think that’s enough with a 12 year old, 14 year old, meals to cook, shopping to do etc.

You clearly live in a very different world from most of us on here! The kids are full time at school, she has 2.5 free days to do shopping/cooking, the latter should be partially done by the 12 and 14 year olds! She also has weekends and I’d say the majority of families go together to the supermarket (in normal times)

Doesn’t her ex pay cms to help support the dc?

Wow I got angry on your behalf whilst reading your OP. Totally understand why your DH lost it. I would have texted them back there and then saying you will pay for the steaks but need to have a conversation regarding them paying rent. I'd ask them to pay half a month this month and then fully from June 1st x

OP, if I didn’t need the money I wouldn’t want it from family. If it were to charge the £1k a month, I’d put it to one side for their kids. But I would want to ensure this man isn’t a free loader...
Genuinely answering as if this were my siblings.
I hope the kids coped okay with moving school.

To me this is a tricky situation
With the benefit of hindsight you should have spoken up when the boyfriend moved in
I am very close to my sister and would not want to take ANY risk with our ongoing relationship
Presumably it is your property here so you have as much say as he has
I think you have to be careful to not go back over what has happened
Ridiculous for people to say send her a tenancy agreement now
That's almost guaranteed to lead to a falling out
Ask them round for a drink (post lockdown)

Say calmly that you want to discuss the situation going forward
If they have anything about them at all they will immediately offer payment

And definitely leave your mum out it

I don't think your sister is a piss taker. She refused the school fee's but she took your offer of living in one of your houses because that is essential, to have a roof over your head, so she knows what is essential and what is not, she isn't out for what she can get.

Now is the time to ask for rent though. Her situation has changed and her partner has moved in who earns a decent wage. I agree no tenancy agreement is needed, she's family. £1,000 a month seems extremely fair for a 3 bed house in short commuting distance of London. Her partner will take home roughly £3,000 a month and she likely takes home around £1,100 a month or so from her part time job and she'll also get child benefit as her and her partner are on less than £50k a year. They'd still have plenty of disposable income paying the rent you will be asking. For context, what they will be left with after paying that rent is still more than what me and DH earn together each month and we have our mortgage and everything to pay and we are ok. Your sister is also in a position to start looking for a full time job in the next year or so because of the age of her children. She may not need to but it's an option and she won't need childcare.

You are a solicitor and have 4 children, it's not like you've ever been held back from excelling is it? Your sister could push herself a little more if she needs to but I don't think working part time with a pre teen and teenager is lazy. However, if her and he partner are not happy with just over £3k disposable income once they start paying rent, there is that option for your sister to increase her earning potential.

There was paragraphs before I submitted the reply 😔

The idea that 2.5 days is ‘enough’ for a parent of 12 and a 14 year old is ludicrous. She could clearly be working more to meet her financial commitments.
The fact that you think that’s ‘enough’ and the views you’ve alluded your parents hold does start to paint a picture of your sister being facilitated by her family and not really having to take a lot of responsibility for herself.
It’s also interesting that 1000 pounds a month wouldn’t make any difference to you - you have four children. It seems as a family you are quite well off but ultimately, it’s your kids that this is being taken off to subsidise her relatively well earning partner.

To be fair to my sister she works 2.5 days a week. I think that’s enough with a 12 year old, 14 year old, meals to cook, shopping to do etc

Whilst I realise you are obviously extremely rich that comment is ridicolous and show you don't live in the real world. Everyone has shopping to do and meals to cook, I've worked full tone since after all my maternity leaves as 1000s will have to.

I’m going to go against the grain a bit here. It sounds like your sister has had a really, really rough time and has no financial security outside of your generosity.

Does her bloke know you own the house? That she pays no rent at present?

If you really, really want to help your sister and her children you need a plan that gives them a taste of the real security and options for the future that you are creating for yours.

Find a way to sell her at least part of the house or guarantee a mortgage on one of her own. If you can overlook £1000 a month for years you can afford to do this for her and her children. You can always reinvest the funds in another property, she’s not even been able to invest in the roof over her children’s head to secure it. If you are looking at them and thinking they can afford £1000 a month now carry on being supportive, generous and your sister’s best friend and make it count rather than asking for it to go into your savings account.

She did discuss with us. At that point we presumed rent would be offered.

This was the point you had the opportunity to say yes he can move in but we would now like rent to be paid.

But yes, if her partner is fully aware of the set-up and asked for money for groceries he’s a CF.