Honest Advice please

[emz771]

I have read MN for years - but never joined. I think sometimes it's good to get some third party advice so please help ladies.

Ok so just over 3 years ago my sister split with her husband. He wasn't very good with money and as such she didn't come out with anything. My husband is in property and said she could live in a property we have. We said (and the wording is important) it's yours rent free for as long as you need it.

Anyway about 18 months ago my sister met a man who is a really nice guy. He is great with her kids, is good company, and we often have a pub lunch with the kids or a dog walk on a Sunday and he treats her and the kids really well.

However about 8 months ago he moved in with my sister and my husband presumed that when he moved in we would get some offer of rent. To put into context he is an engineer for BT and does quite a bit of overtime and we understand he is on about 45k a year. My sister works part time as a secretary and earns about 16k a year. So they are a 60K household with no rent/mortgage.

Now it's been griping at my husband for some time - and yesterday he actually got really annoyed. This is going to sound silly but because he is still working my husband asked him to pick up some steaks from a farm shop he passes and leave on our door step. He did - but then my sister messaged me that night and said the steaks were £32. My husband who is a calm man lost it - and claimed he lives in our property that we could rent for £1500 a month and can't shout us a few steaks.

Now I need to say my sister is my best friend in the entire world - and it's not the money with my husband but the fact he feels this guy is taking the mick. The house would rent for £1500 - but I know my husband would let them have it for £800.

Now is it our fault with the wording "have it as long as you want" even though that was when she was a single parent living on a part time wage.I don't want it to affect my relationship with my husband.

Let me know - am I being a cow?

I’m intrigued to know that friendship was lost. It seems like you both done the decent thing. You by offering to pay interest and her by declining the interest from a friend as she didn’t need it.

I think you have been overly generous really, and your sister is very lucky. It looks like you feel a bit guilty about the inequalities in both your lives, and are trying to equalise things, but life isn't fair. And she could do a lot more to help herself, but instead chooses to let others pay her way. Working very part time while she has credit card debts and is living rent free, in order to 'organise' two teenagers who would be at school all day, is quite a privileged position that not many people could afford. You say yourself if your husband stopped contributing you'd live on beans in the shed, but it sounds like in that situation your sister wouldn't. She'd carry on as she was before, and hope that you or someone else would take on his share for her.

Darling OP not asking for a tenancy agreement is asking for a whole heap of trouble. Legally your sister and her other half already have rights so why not put yours in writing just so there is absolutely no confusion about ANYTHING. Your sister sounds like a good person albeit a vunerable one but how well do you really know her partner?

My advice woukd be to get a tenancy agreement and do credit checks on then both. They won't know and neither will anyone else. You need to start protecting your assets before they put a claim to them.

BTW I am a Qualified Chartererd Surveyor with over 20 years experience in Corporate Real Estate so I do know what I'm talking about here.

What he and before is irrelevant. What he would get for a grand a month is irrelevant.

He is paying rent. She isn't.

He is being taken advantage of as a decent person who has immediately coughed up.

She has taken advantage, lied to her boyfriend, is expecting everyone else to pay for her and who isn't paying for the house she sees as hers.

You are an idiot if you think this will end well when her relationship ends.

I said YABU, only because it's your responsibility to have asked for rent once she no longer was in a position to be unable to pay it i.e. with a new partner moving in. They are BU too though.

Having said that, I hope she matures, he turns out to be a good one and her kids are happy and safe and it all ends well.

@villamariavintrapp
I agree with everything you've written above, I was just about to post virtually the same.
@BrownEyedGal1512 is absolutely right OP, you must sort out a tenancy agreement.

You're too kind for your own good OP - that isn't a criticism, just an observation. I'd work part time too if I had a Fairy Godmother like you! Instead I juggle everything, but I wouldn't have it any other way actually, because I can sleep at night, knowing I'm doing all I can. You think you're helping your sister, and you are in the short term - but she needs to stand on her own two feet more now, putting things on a formal footing with a tenancy agreement will ensure that she starts to realise that she's an adult, and needs to deal with life as one.

The friendship was lost from the comment beggar and big issue sellers.
I felt resentment had built up over the time of the repayments for some reason for her to word it like that.
She had offered to lend me the money when my father had refused (to pay for a divorce abusive partner). I took her up on it. I feel resentment can build up when money is involved for any reasons.
Was I a beggar or big issue seller(nothing wrong with selling the big issue her context not mine) that's how I felt she was viewing me. At the start she had said "I needed it she had it lying there."
I guess the friendship ended cos I didn't ask her what she meant by the remark. Lending money except from a bank can just ruin relationships.

I felt the sister's bf wasn't generous because a contribution of £500 a month was a lot less than what he was paying on his own and he must have known he was on to a good thing the size of the property he is now in and I suspected he didn't pay his way in the pub which would be an irritant before steakgate!

You may not need the money now but I'm sure you bought the property with the view to needing the money at some point, even if it is so you can retire a few months earlier than you would have. Your sister and her bf need to pay for their home like any other adult does.

The poster who said I probably feel guilty about the inequity between our lives is probably right. I know that isn’t my fault - but it can be very uncomfortable at times.

Obviously they need to be told that the offer of 'rent-free' was a kind gesture to her and her alone when she really needed it at the time. You say the new boyfriend is a very good man. If he knows your sister is living rent-free then he is not a good man at all. What man would accept this arrangement? A real man would stand his ground and would have saved this awkward situation by raising this issue himself. If he is unaware that his girlfriend lives rent-free, what has he been told? That she owns the property? Is he paying his fair share to your sister but because she's not handing any money over to you, you're non the wiser. Where did this man live before meeting your sister? I wonder if he is so wonderful when he has to cough up rent like the rest of us, if he's not already paying your sister. You are not in the wrong to tell them that you want, not need, rent money. If the going rent for that property is £1500, I would think £1200 is still a bargain for them. If they don't want to pay that amount then they can look for a cheaper place to live. Then you can rent it out for £1500. There's a reason people say not to do business with family. Your kindness should not be abused. Be firm and to the point, with no apologies whatsoever.

Ah, thanks for clarifying that, Luddite26 - I see what you mean now. Sorry it ended up that way, but it sounds like there were already points of tension.

Completely off topic- but as you say you don’t need the rent could you put it into an ISA for your niece and nephew- help with uni or whatever? It seems their lives have been turned upside down. I know most will say I’m mad but if you won’t miss the 1k then why not?

We are going to have to help with niece and nephews uni anyway. For my niece it’s only 4 years off (presuming she doesn’t have a gap year) There is no way she will be able to afford it. My niece wants to be a vet - and if memory serves me correctly that’s 6 or 7 years of study.

So maybe putting this rent into a trust isn’t a terrible idea if you’re going to help anyway?

For sure.

But you don't at all OP. Have to help that is. You can choose to help, and that's great, but think about the assumption of you helping here: "We are going to have to help..." Is this assumed by you or your DS? Why can't she work full time and contribute to that help with funding also?

Do you see what I mean? I think there's a lot taken for granted here, in the past and in the future. You say you feel a bit guilty about being in a better financial position, and that's understandable. But, here's the crucial question, does she feel resentful of your financial position? Do you think she might have thought "Oh well, they're lucky, they can afford to buy the drinks...pay the rent..." If so, then she needs to realise that the funds and help are not to be assumed.

Sorry I should have said want to help - not have to help.

Thanks We built this buffet on sausage rolls.
Yes I think tensions build up where money is concerned between friends and relatives however well meaning everybody starts. Unthinking actions can make people look like piss takers when things aren't reclarified.
Good luck with the on going situation I hope it all turns out well. Don't feel guilty it's a wasted energy.xx

Ems I think it’s absolutely great you are helping with university, I would and will do the same for my niece and nephew.

But make sure you don’t become such a reliable safety net that their parents don’t bother.

Your sister will have to start working full Time (she should be already) and their dad must start taking on Some responsibility.

I'm glad it's all sorted and got sorted amicably as well, well done.

I do think working part time when she has teenage children, no assets or a pension, is a luxury your sister can't afford but that's a subject for another time.

I'm glad you're all still friends.

Christ on a bike, your sister's a spoilt, entitled CFer. I can almost guarantee she's raking in the tax credits, too. Thinks the world owes her a living at a certain standard. She landed on her feet with you two and her boyfriend. She chooses to work PT, please, her kids are 12 and 14. She's one of those people who go through life mooching, running up debts because she believes she's entitled to things. I wouldn't give her FA for the steaks. What a total bitch to message you to pay for them. Maybe her boyfriend will wise up and realise she's a con artist. She has no shame.

I have no idea about tax credits - but they aren’t much are they?

Jesus people in this thread are so judgemental.

So what if OP’s sister may or may not be a bit of a CF / entitled? Is it really the end of the bloody world if she doesn’t learn her lesson through poverty like she’s in a sodding Dickens novel?

OP, if I were lucky enough to be in your position I’d do exactly the same, even if my siblings might take the piss a bit or not have the same work ethic as me. Who bloody cares? Why should your sister have to struggle if you don’t want her to, just because other people do? If you can afford it, why not? Life’s too short for all this moralising and nonsense about struggle and fairness. There’s no fairness in the world FFS.

That’s pretty much my thinking - even if she does rely on me a bit. It’s not the kids fault - no reason they shouldn’t have opportunity or live in a nice house.