Will black lives ever matter?

[RockLock]

So another killing of a black man Ahmaud Arbery by 2 white men (Father and son) in US. They nearly got away with it calling it a citizen arrest and self defence. Father was a retired policeman.

They followed him, armed with guns and shot him.

Prosecutors tried to cover it up until the video emerged.
Ahmaud’s crime? He was going for a jog.

Will black lives ever matter?

This is always an issue with racism...

it is true that every case has to be viewed on its own merits, and yes, sometimes someone idiots kill regardless of colour, so a black death isn't always the result of racism...

However, that is a joker card that is constantly pulled out of the hat in face of any racist incident. But we aren't talking about a street fight between drunken idiots and one of them happens to be black. We aren't talking about a self-defence situation which results in a death of a black man...

We are talking about two men who armed themselves (as you do) and actively sought out what they claim to believe was a suspect...

a) They armed themselves
Already they prepared themselves for confrontation. Even claiming a weapon is for self-defence still presupposes you envisage an encounter.

b) They had ample time to spot the suspect and call police, but failed to do so.

c) They had ample time to approach the suspect in a civil manner, but failed to do so.

d) When approached by two men in a vehicle bearing weapons, it is difficult to believe they feared for their lives more than Mr Arbery did.
If they feared so much, they needn't have approached him at all.

Whether they intended to kill, injure, apprehend, or merely intimidate Mr Arbery, the entire onus was on them. If take a weapon, seek confrontation and it results in injury or death, you could reasonably have foreseen that danger and it's manslaughter at the very least.

I can't 'prove' it's racism. Do I believe it was? Absolutely I do.
Actually, I believe it's a mix of factors, of which racism was one.
When you combine vigilantism, a propensity for violence as a 'resolution' and racism - you end up with dead black deaths.

Racism combined with other stupid beliefs is still racism.

Well said, Vertical.

Beautifully put, VerticalHorizon.

👏👏👏👏👏 @VerticalHorizon

This was in America not the U.K., attitudes are different and don’t forget the ready access to guns

This was in America not the U.K., attitudes are different

In what way? I don’t think there can be any question that institutional racism is a serious problem in the UK.

I don't think we are all that different leckford. Racism in the UK is still around, just a little more covert.
I really do not have to look far, even amongst friends who I know to be 'good' people, to find casual racism.
In truth, I am not immune either.

Would I look longer at an Asian man carrying a backpack longer than I would a white man?
Would I feel more vulnerable if I entered a predominantly black area?
Would I make certain assumptions about a white man wearing a suit vs a black man wearing a hoodie - about threat, about intelligence, about many things...

If we are honest, I think we all hold some prejudice. Recognising in ourselves is important. That's a far cry from having hatred, but we each have little preconceptions about others (not just race based).

But there's not a pub in the UK, or a decent size office that that doesn't have someone prepared to say 'I'm not at all racist but...' when they think they are our of earshot of getting into trouble.

I don't know. I get that saying "oh it's not the same in the UK" appears to diminish the problem in the UK, BUT in my experience... it's not the same in the UK, lol. By which I'm not trying to say it's not a major issue in the UK (I've experienced a lot of "institutional" racism AND my fair share outright racism in the UK), but that it's a much, much bigger problem in the US. The hangover from slavery and segregation is far more noticeable there. And the much bigger wealth inequality gap disproportionately leaves so, so many black people in poverty there just makes it all worse.

I'm really glad I don't live in the US, put it that way.

It’s a horrifying case. The father was a police officer and then an investigator for the district attorney’s office (a job commonly taken by former police officers.) For the office that refused to file charges on him for months. The US has a huge problem with racism.

The UK has a racism problem too. It’s a remembered stat I cannot find the details for but in the 90s there was a ‘ring of steel’ around London to help prevent IRA attacks (Irish terrorists.) Over 20% of those stopped were BAME at a time when they made up under 5% of the population as a whole and 0% of the IRA.

The Grey’s Anatomy link should be shown to anyone who questions the existence of white privilege. It’s something that you don’t even have to think about if you’re white.

I swear some people sound like they're almost afraid to admit/acknowledge that black lives do matter, that racism is alive and well and that innocent people are being abused and murdered purely because of the colour of their skin

I think some people are indeed scared to acknowledge that racism is alive and well in U.K. society/US society because that would mean looking at all the systems and process that we buy into that deny the humanity of others.

It much easier to convince yourself that there’s a legitimate reason this man was killed than to recognise the horror of not being able to go for a run knowing with certainty you’ll come home safe.

It’s much easier to point to black on black crimes than to acknowledge the justice systems on both sides of the pond fail to protect all its citizens.

It’s much easier to think that black people are paranoid or feckless than to recognise the very real barriers to education and employment faced by people of colour.

It’s much easier to place slavery and discriminatory law in historical context than to accept that history impacts on values and perceptions society hold today.

Because to fully acknowledge those things means life would need to change, that inequalities would need to be addressed and those organisational systems would need to be dismantled, perhaps resulting in less favourable conditions for those who enjoy privilege by dint of skin colour, birth, sex, wealth or the intersection of all those things. God forbid the playing field might be levelled in a way that life gets a bit harder for white, heterosexual, middle class men (and women). Or that I might need to acknowledge that the benefits I enjoy come at a cost to others, or that as a white, middle class women I don’t experience anything like the levels of prejudice and adversity that my black friends do.

People are scared that better for you means worse for me - or that if it does mean worse for me, maybe it’s because I inadvertently benefit from the racism I claim doesn’t exist.

It wasn’t that long ago African Americans weren’t even recognised as human in US law, sadly it seems we’ve not travelled far from that place.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/09/police-watchdog-london-taser-injury-investigate

It’s a really good job that our police aren’t routinely armed (with guns).

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/08/manchester-police-taser-man-with-child-iopc-stretford

Just sayin'

The US is the size of Europe, and we can see that parts of Europe have bigger issues than others. This is the case in the USA.
But yes, I think slavery still leaves its mark, and parts of the USA are shockingly behind the times with attitudes to race, religion, sex...

The USA is a relatively easy target for all kinds of criticism, but I think it can feel good to criticism them as a subconscious way to divert attention from our own failings. That's a common human trait. 'We might not be perfect, but at least we are not them...'

We see it now when me criticise a lot of Eastern Europe's racism probably only echoing our own attitudes in the past.

Looking at this thread @VerticalHorizon they’re not in the past.

Yanbu OP. Yet another senseless killing & huge delay of justice

I think you have to be pretty thick to try and pin this particular incident on anything other than racism. It cannot be excused or defended no matter how much you try to bend and twist it. Its painfully obvious what this was and everyone should be standing with this mans family. It absolutely cannot be swept under the carpet or ignored.

Peddling 'all lives matter' etc, at times like this isn't going to go the way you want it to. No one is going to listen when you try to counteract a loss of a life through racism with black people kill people too.

There is definitely a place for discussion about violence towards white people, notably young white girls, specifically for their culture/skin colour, but this isn't how or when it should happen.

When we can acknowledge a blatantly racist, hunt and kill like this and agree it is indefensible, heartbreaking and sickening, maybe then we will be taken seriously when we want to discuss matters that involve incidents the other way round.

@Jellycatspyjamas, I agree, they still exist. I think we have come a long way, but still a lot further to go. Things are better, they really are, but the stench of racism is only a whiff away!

"He looked like a burglary suspect," translates as "he was a black man running in a nice neighbourhood."

Who elected these two as vigilantes? If they thought they recognised a suspect, why not call the police? They could still have trailed the victim and been in contact with police if they were so sure.

One armed man driving and another standing in the tray of the truck is how you go hunting game. 'Roo shooters do it.

This was an updated lynching; nothing less. I'm only surprised they didn't tie their victim's body to the bumper and drive around waving confederate flags, shooting into the air and hollering...

This case may be a watershed: we'll have to wait and see.

Perhaps they forgot the rope. 💔

It’s much easier to point to black on black crimes than to acknowledge the justice systems on both sides of the pond fail to protect all its citizens.

I wish some people would stop using black on black crime as an excuse especially when it has no bearing on the situation. Anyone who uses it already shows themselves as ignorant or racist if they are happy to ignore and/or not acknowledge the fact that other races kill each other too. White people kill other whites yet there is no term for them when they do this nor any other race except black people. It’s just one of many ways to make black people be seen as lesser or in need of harsher treatments.

The evidence that racism exists and is so incontrovertibly huge I’m gobsmacked at the attempts to deny it on this thread. I’m white and from a small place with very few BAME people so can only assume it’s wilful ignorance on others’ part not to see it.

OP coming to a predominantly white, middle women forum. You really are not going to get the responses you expect. Most will conclude that all lives matter,which of course they do. But in America, its not so easy when your skin colour is a perceived threat. If Ahmuds legal team can be beef up with the best, pro bono ideally and give him the best defence he deserves. Then maybe, just maybe there might be 'justice'. But black American cannot afford to be so carefree.

OP coming to a predominantly white, middle women forum. You really are not going to get the responses you expect.

Tbh this kind of reply is rather dismissive of the people that at least try to get it ,help and listen.
Yes, OP got plenty awful and racist replies , it doesn't mean everyone is refusing to engage.

No never. Burn them all. Obviously.