To break up my marriage

[Forgivemenot43]

I've NC for this as it's really sensitive and I'm in a dilemma. Sorry it's really long so don't start reading if you can't be arsed. I've been married for 20 yrs to my absolute soul mate. We met aged 15 and have been inseparable ever since. We have 2 children aged 9 and 16. Life is on the whole good. However, here comes the bad bit.....
We are all quite highly strung and when we have a row it can get out of hand. This happens about 2 - 3 times a year. The eldest dd is very argumentative and can be at times vile, particularly towards me. Like many teens I guess. So it usually starts with us arguing then I lose my temper and yell and she yells back etc etc. This can then escalate to my husband getting involved then he loses his temper and yells and because he's angry he has punched walls etc and put holes in them. Then we all make up and it's brushed under the carpet until it happens again.
So the other night my dd was horrible to me and was going to storm out of the house. She said some really nasty things and it was all over something really trivial. Her dad then gets angry and demands she loses her phone for her behaviour. Only like has happened loads of times before, she won't give him it. She gloats and says there's nothing you can do about it as you can't touch me. When this has happened in the past he has just given up and her behaviour has gone unpunished or we've had to suspend the phone through the network. But this time he was so pissed off with her he grabbed hold of her to physically get the phone off her. I didn't witness this as I was downstairs but I could hear what was going on. She was screaming and shouting hysterically angry because he had overpowered her and I have now learnt hurt her. She stormed out and he went after her while I was comforting our youngest child who was in bed but saw it from his room. Dd came back and went straight to her room with her phone as he gave her it back. Since then they've kind of being ok with each other and like other times, beginning to move on and forget it happened. But today dd showed me her arm where he grabbed her. There's clear finger marks where he has grabbed her arm to restrain her to get the phone. I feel sick thinking about it. She's rightfully angry but doesn't want to tell the police or anything drastic to happen. Then an hour later we are all on a walk together and she starts having a go at him and threatens him that 1 call and he's going to jail. She knows that he knows hes done wrong and I don't think she'll forget this. So deep down I know I should protect my child and ask him to leave but I'm scared of the whole consequences of breaking up my family. I dont really think dd wants this but at the same time I know she is a child. Apart from these awful arguments we have a great life. We go on holidays the kids love and adore him and we are like a normal family. What do I do? If he left it would devastate my youngest and I think it would dd too. And of course it would me. I have no financial worry at all but it's everything else. Breaking up my family. Please can I have some advice.

He assaulted your daughter.

And your proposal is that you should normalise that and pressure her to pretend he didn't assault her? To teach both your children that it's ok to assault people? And that if someone hurts them you won't protect them?

Based on what her parents have previously modelled to her as normal and healthy relationship behaviour, where do you think she learnt to call you "vile" names?

You can't model toxic behaviour to a child for sixteen years and then blame her for it! Take some responsibility for yourself.

Your home is already broken. Assaulting your family is not normal and you should not teach your children to accept it.

Calling the police isn't drastic. Assaulting your child is.

This can then escalate to my husband getting involved then he loses his temper and yells and because he's angry he has punched walls etc and put holes in them.

I think it's abhorrent that you've forced two children to live in this environment.

It's abuse.

I agree with above poster. I have a 16 year old DS and I can hand on heart say there’s no way me and him would ever get into a physical altercation in any argument. It’s wrong.

Where has your DD learnt that screaming and calling your family vile names is acceptable? Does she do this out of the family home? At school or with friends? Does your DH? I wonder if either you or your DH grew up seeing this in your family of origin? Are you replicating that? Do you see how this is having a circular effect? And that circular effect is damaging?

Your daughter is a teen. Teens can be crazy, selfish, uncontrollable pricks sometimes. I remember myself when I was 16, and I can honestly say that I have exhausted my parent's patience by saying some nasty things. Did he hit your daughter? No, he just got extremely angry with her, and lost control a little bit. I am NOT supporting it, however what did she actually say to him to make him loose control? And threaten him later that she will call the police, seriously? Maybe you should have a work with her, and explain to her that if her father goes to jail for something she provoked him to do - the consequences for the entire family will be severe. From what you describe- you have a great family, and your kids have a lovely life, so I think she is just being silly and ungrateful due to teen hormones and age.

What the fuck, is this truly serious? You think your arguments 2-3 times a year where there's punching holes in walls is ok to brush under the carpet?

How on earth can you imagine that this kind of toxicity is acceptable? How do you survive it, let alone your DC? Aren't your stress levels through the roof?

Your DH assaulted a child. It's really straightforward and the fact you don't see it is worrying. Please look at this from your DCs point of view and make decisions based on what is safest for them.

It never happened as we were growing up no. My dad has a bit of a temper and shouted at times but that was it. Dh in his family his mum used to be in charge. Apparently she hit him with a hairbrush but it wasnt that unusual then for you to be smacked as a child.
I know it was abuse yes. He has never hurt her before or me. He just gets his anger out my punching a wall usually. I just don't know if its worse to break the family up when we are happy most of the time or like you say, it's worse the damage it is doing when it happens. If it happened every week or 2 I would have had enough but it's because there is such normal and happy times inbetween the arguments.

It doesnt sound great, from any of you, i wouldn't have dd practally blackmailing her dad with jail, she was out of order with the whole thing, your dh has anger issues that need addressed, and he shouldn't be laying his hands on the dc or anyone, but from what you've said said, i wouldn't split up the family for this, but would be setting some serious rules in place, and making sure this never happened again.

This was an argument that got out of hand. Yes he shouldnt have grabbed her so hard but it's not like he punched her in the face. It doesn't sound like he meant to really hurt her.

Tbh the problem isnt just with your husband but your whole family. Your daughter sounds vile and disrespectful and you let her get away with it. Where are the consequences when she behaves like this?

If my 16yr old called me vile names then laughed in my face that I couldn't do anything about it I would throw her out and tell her she can come home when shes ready to be respectful and follow house rules. She certainly wouldn't have a phone.

The way your family communicates is toxic. I would suggest some sort of group therapy so you can all learn how to disagree without it turning toxic.

I wouldn't involve the police unless you're ready for social services to be involved with your family.

We are all quite highly strung seriously?
You, DH and DD all sound horrible, screaming, shouting, threatening each other.
Before everyone jumps on the abuse waggon, the DD sounds like a manipulative brat, he didn’t beat her he grabbed her.

I have a temper. I have had arguments with DD that have got out of hand. Not to the point of bruising, not to the point of physical assault. Though, to be honest, it got pretty bloody close.

First thing though, is I have always owned that whatever the provocation, my reaction was completely unacceptable, and apologised. Has your daughter's father done that? I was the adult, I was the one that should have had superior self control, and I was the one that lost it.

Second thing I did was to make very bloody sure I never did it again.

Those holes in walls are not a minor thing, they're a sign of physical power, anger and aggression designed to intimidate and cause fear.

I think your daughter has every right to make it clear she knows that nobody, including her father, is allowed to physically assault her, certainly not to the point of leaving marks, and that she can seek legal recourse and protection.

Her father might want to think about accessing anger management programmes, and you both might want to think about looking into parenting programmes.

I think you all need family therapy if only for the sake of the nine year old.

I agree DD sounds like a nightmare. Your DH grabbed her to take her phone off her it's not like he slapped her across the face.
I think you should have a word with your DD about the way your family has been treating each other and perhaps you guys could take some anger management classes together when the country opens up. I don't know if you should necessarily leave because of this but I think you need to do something to fix the way your family deal with conflict

Your vile daughter will get worse as she now thinks she can blackmail the whole family. Your DH needs to control his temper better, but she obviously knows how to push everyone's buttons. When this happens again, send your husband out so he can't batter walls, or people and walk away from your daughter. No audience, no show. We have probably all been difficult teenagers, but to threaten to break up the whole family because your DH left finger marks on your daughter's arms is very extreme, unfair on you, your son, your DH and ultimately your daughter who will know she is responsible for this. Yes, he shouldn't have lost his temper, but to break up a marriage? No. Try and get some family therapy, oh and take the brat's phone away from her.

I feel OP's original post is perhaps somewhat biased against her daughter. Just my opinion. But to be calling her a brat, vile, a nightmare?

She's not the one who assaulted a person to the point of leaving bruises.

She was not the adult in this. She was being (an obnoxious and trying) teenager. That's what she is. She lacks the impulse control, self discipline, and emotional intelligence that you develop as you get older. You know, like her parents, the actual adults, should have acquired by now.

She has some justification for her poor behaviour? Them? Not so much. And yes, news flash, our children don't just have to put up with being assaulted, even by their parents. And they know it. Best that we realise they know it and modify our behaviour in light of that. . .

Jesus Christ. That sounds like a horrendous environment for your children. Please leave him. I don't understand why this is such a difficult decision to make.

@mbosnz
Why do MN trot out this crap about teenagers? They can control themselves, they can be very mature and intelligent, all you’re doing is excusing bad behaviour, at what age do they take responsibility for being nasty and manipulative?

Just to make it clear we don't threaten each other during arguments. It's just random stupid shouting. Dd just says nasty things at times, but only when she has lost her temper. She honestly is lovely when she's in a good mood and we all get on really well otherwise. She is hard work and yes acts like a brat at times I agree.
Dh doesn't punch walls to intimidate either imo, he does it because he's got a surge of anger and has to release it. It's not done in front of the kids either but obviously they know he has done it.
He has apologised reservedly yes, well we all have. I guess the thing that makes it even harder is it would be him leaving the house. My parents paid my mortgage off so the expectation would be he goes. On top of this he works on a self employed basis for 1 of my family members and he would also lose his job. So that would be his family, job and home gone. Everything. He has no money of his own, I look after all finances. He has no where to go other than his parent's. Do I think he deserves that? No I dont think he does. BUT then I realise what this is doing to the kids and I'm completely at a loss of how to deal with it.

Can you get your husband to get counselling for anger management? Can you tell him that it's just not acceptable and this cannot be how you bring up your family, no matter how horrid your daughter? He sounds like a good man - so maybe this would help you all and save your family?

He needs serious help in managing his temper. I would make this a necessity if you allow him to stay. Daughter needs to know that when you ask for her phone as a punishment that she hands it over. Seems like boundaries for behaviour need to be set and followed by all members of the family.

Why do MN trot out this crap about teenagers? They can control themselves, they can be very mature and intelligent, all you’re doing is excusing bad behaviour, at what age do they take responsibility for being nasty and manipulative?

It's not MN, it's mbosnz. I don't speak for MN.

Yes, they can control themselves, be very mature and intelligent, and then again, they cannot. And it's not particularly well embedded at that stage. It's very much up to the individual - which often depends on what has been modelled at home. If the behaviour at home is intemperate, uncontrolled, and angry, with poor emotional intelligence and self control - say if Daddy is prone to thumping holes in walls, and Mum is often getting into stand up arguments with the teen - perhaps they're going to mirror the behaviour of their parents?

I would expect the adult to model to the young adult/teen taking responsibility for their poor behaviour. So apologising. Without reserve. He assaulted her to the point of leaving marks. Provocation is only a defence in regards to murder/manslaughter, not being pissed off by a smart mouthed teenager. Giving an undertaking it will not happen again. Seeking help to ensure it does not happen again. This could be anger management, parenting programmes, or family therapy.

Talking with my teenager, about how scary this was for everyone, and what can we do to ensure it doesn't happen again? (Hint, walking away is always a good idea. No one ever ran the risk of criminal prosecution from walking away away from a confrontation that got overheated).

Your family behaviour is well over the top. You are two adults acting like children, therefore your children are behaving the same way. I cannot believe you both have let this go on so long. You need help otherwise it could escalate even more.

You need family therapy. That whole dynamic is incredibly unhealthy, and I feel for your 9yo. As for your DD - where do you think she learned this behaviour? This is on you as parents.

Parents regularly having rows that get out of hand, both yelling and dad punching walls, and people are saying the daughter should be more responsible? Where would she learn to act sensibly and calmly?

What strikes me is that you and your husband behave appalling and when your daughter, naturally, does the same you try to sanction her. What are YOUR sanctions? Children learn by example.

DD and DH seem to be acting the same towards one another! DH seems to have a short fuse and is acting over the top .His DM hitting him with a hairbrush is abuse Im afraid .Maybe some family counselling may help as other PP have said here .The youngest DC will be scared and think this is the way all families behave!