To break up my marriage

[Forgivemenot43]

I've NC for this as it's really sensitive and I'm in a dilemma. Sorry it's really long so don't start reading if you can't be arsed. I've been married for 20 yrs to my absolute soul mate. We met aged 15 and have been inseparable ever since. We have 2 children aged 9 and 16. Life is on the whole good. However, here comes the bad bit.....
We are all quite highly strung and when we have a row it can get out of hand. This happens about 2 - 3 times a year. The eldest dd is very argumentative and can be at times vile, particularly towards me. Like many teens I guess. So it usually starts with us arguing then I lose my temper and yell and she yells back etc etc. This can then escalate to my husband getting involved then he loses his temper and yells and because he's angry he has punched walls etc and put holes in them. Then we all make up and it's brushed under the carpet until it happens again.
So the other night my dd was horrible to me and was going to storm out of the house. She said some really nasty things and it was all over something really trivial. Her dad then gets angry and demands she loses her phone for her behaviour. Only like has happened loads of times before, she won't give him it. She gloats and says there's nothing you can do about it as you can't touch me. When this has happened in the past he has just given up and her behaviour has gone unpunished or we've had to suspend the phone through the network. But this time he was so pissed off with her he grabbed hold of her to physically get the phone off her. I didn't witness this as I was downstairs but I could hear what was going on. She was screaming and shouting hysterically angry because he had overpowered her and I have now learnt hurt her. She stormed out and he went after her while I was comforting our youngest child who was in bed but saw it from his room. Dd came back and went straight to her room with her phone as he gave her it back. Since then they've kind of being ok with each other and like other times, beginning to move on and forget it happened. But today dd showed me her arm where he grabbed her. There's clear finger marks where he has grabbed her arm to restrain her to get the phone. I feel sick thinking about it. She's rightfully angry but doesn't want to tell the police or anything drastic to happen. Then an hour later we are all on a walk together and she starts having a go at him and threatens him that 1 call and he's going to jail. She knows that he knows hes done wrong and I don't think she'll forget this. So deep down I know I should protect my child and ask him to leave but I'm scared of the whole consequences of breaking up my family. I dont really think dd wants this but at the same time I know she is a child. Apart from these awful arguments we have a great life. We go on holidays the kids love and adore him and we are like a normal family. What do I do? If he left it would devastate my youngest and I think it would dd too. And of course it would me. I have no financial worry at all but it's everything else. Breaking up my family. Please can I have some advice.

Clearly he did wrong as a lot of parents do but I also feel she needs shutting up about threatening a call to the police. She is a child and needs to be told the consequences of her threats , as he does if he does it again or remotely gets over angry. If she wants to call the police tell her to do it but tell her she owns it. He also has to apologise and seek help.

Don't bother piling in on me. I'm entitled to say what I think as everyone is.

He clearly shouldn't have grabbed your DD, but I don't think it's abuse. Re the bruises, If someone gets hold of my arm, and I don't mean angry grabbing, I will get bruises where their fingers have been. The bruises are not necessarily evidence of being hurt. Some people bruise more easily than others and I know I bruise without having been hurt at all.

I'm sure he grabbed her quite roughly, but ... I don't know, it sounds like you all need to go into family therapy and figure out how to control your anger. Wrt your DD calling the police, there would be some repercussions, I'm sure, but given that it's a one-off and was grabbing and nothing else, plus the first time with no other history of violence, I doubt that it would go further than a caution.

I say again. Who had the bruises here?

Not the Dad. Not the Mum.

Poor Dad. Poor Mum. What a horror of a daughter.

I had my mother almost believe an accusation against me. I was 13. My mother, thankfully, decided on balance not to believe it. Some years later, she said, very solemnly, that if she'd believed it, she would have had to 'taken to me'. I said 'it's a bloody good thing you believed it, because you would have got as good as you gave, and then some'.

She was quite taken aback.

I suspect that daughter here, might have a slightly different story. Naturally, there's always two sides.

Many will say your DD is a child, well she is 16, she can vote and she can get married without parental permission.

Actually, you have to be 18 to do that. We are talking about someone who is not old enough to drive, drink, take out a loan, smoke, vote, or marry without parental consent. She is a child by law.

OP, please study the Freedom Programme. It will help you to recognise abuse when you see it, including threatening behaviour such as wall-punching. Normal people who've lost their temper go for a run or to the gym to let off steam. They don't damage the family home or grab physically-weaker children hard enough to bruise.

I dont think it sounds good but sometimes we all make mistakes I would be concerned however, with the two or three times a year losing control and physical violence. I am female my 18yr old DS wound me up so badly the other week as he hurt my younger DS not intentionally but he was too rough. Whilst I tried to tell him off for this he was walking away in a huff. I grabbed his wrist to stop him and he yanked it out of my grasp my nails scrapped all the way down his arm and honestly looked a right mess.
My point is that I dont feel that was assault. I know myself and my son and my family dynamics and you know yours. You have to be honest with yourself is this a good man who is struggling with what sounds like an extremely defiant teenager or someone who has anger issues and needs help in dealing with that. Do you feel like you can bring this up with him or would you be scared he would blow up.
You need to ask yourself some tough questions. He should be doing the same if he is a good person. Maybe some counselling for the both of them is needed.

I also feel she needs shutting up about threatening a call to the police.

You're talking about silencing a child who has been physically grabbed so hard that she has bruised? That's not endorsing abuse at all, no sirree.

She is a child and needs to be told the consequences of her threats

There won't be any for her, as she would be making a complaint to the police in good faith. What you really mean is "she needs to be prevented from ratting out the actual bully in this situation because of the consequences he would face".

Don't bother piling in on me. I'm entitled to say what I think as everyone is.

Ooh, look at the "big man" here, trying to silence his critics. You don't get to say your piece and then tell the rest of us to shut up. Everything you've said in your comment screams "abuse apologist" and "victim blamer". There's more red flags than VE Day bunting.

tootiredtospeak

My point is that it's not whether you feel it was assault or not, it could arguably be constituted to be so. It's not actually up to you, if your DS or DD decides to go to the police and lay a charge.

If you're getting to the point that you're actually putting marks on each other, then you need to change your family dynamics, because they're becoming potentially criminally liable. And obviously, not terribly healthy or positive.

Some years later, she said, very solemnly, that if she'd believed it, she would have had to 'taken to me'. I said 'it's a bloody good thing you believed it, because you would have got as good as you gave, and then some'.

She was quite taken aback.

I am always astounded when parents who think it's OK to hit their kids are so surprised when the kid gets big enough to fight back and actually does so. They've raised their kids to think that violence is an acceptable means of settling arguments, what did they expect their kids would do?

It sounds like an unhealthy family dynamic overall imo.

Your dh losing his rag and punching walls is completely unacceptable- he needs some anger management. And this has likely contributed to your dd’s behaviour.

However... I wouldn’t put up with either. Your dd’s behaviour needs addressing as much as your dh’s.

I am always astounded when parents who think it's OK to hit their kids are so surprised when the kid gets big enough to fight back and actually does so. They've raised their kids to think that violence is an acceptable means of settling arguments, what did they expect their kids would do?

Yup. I know, right?

I'm really glad she believed me. It would have been really bloody ugly.

You have to be honest with yourself is this a good man who is struggling with what sounds like an extremely defiant teenager or someone who has anger issues

This. Only you know your family dynamics, and who your husband really is. Make your decisions based on that.

Also be very honest with yourself about your personal bias.

I am very firm on DV, but for once I’m going to have to say this is not all on your husband.

Get yourselves some family therapy and start working together the two of you as the adults in this relationship.

This is not good. 😐

Not “anger issues” (unless he has the problem across the board: at work, with friends and extended family, random people/situations).

“Being abusive” issues.

He was trying to get the phone and probably didn’t realise it would bruise. It does sound like some family counselling would be useful. At the same time some teenage girls could get Mother Theresa to lose her shit.

It's not 'abuse'. Your dd sounds like an absolute nightmare when she gets like that. Your dh needs to tell her about social services and the impact on the family if she doesn't stop acting like a brat.

Op this sounds really stressful for everyone. Dd sounds extremely provocative and your Dh reaction is disproportionate. It does not sound like he deliberately hurt her but more that she was hurt in the crossfire of an aggressive argument. You need to let everyone calm down and talk your your dh about what he is going to do next time this happens, how he is going to manage it. Get him to do some reading up on the teenage brain and gain a better understanding of dd.
Your dd also needs help to understand why she acts with verbal aggression towards you and to work through this.
Good luck

He lost his temper. He hurt the girl to the point that he left marks.

I'm not saying LTB. (I would have been the bastard that would have been left - and I didn't do anything that severe. Bad enough that I have much shame. I hope your DH has shame.).

I am saying, own your actions, both of you. Do not ask your daughter to own her actions which are a reflection and a response to your own, over the years and in the moment, until you have owned yours. Genuinely. Yes, she may be vile. Sounds like she's not the only one.

Try and sort yourselves out. But do not make that girl the scapegoat for your very disfunctional family dynamic.

I think the only way I could move forward from this and keep the family together is if he agrees to have anger management training and to see it through. He needs to acknowledge that his behaviour is damaging and dangerous. He needs to acknowledge that this behaviour is escalating. You need to also deal with your teenage daughters behaviour but that's a separate issue. Teenagers are evil sometimes! But there's never an excuse for violence.

Mbosnz....whilst I accept your viewpoint the same one stands for the knee to the back my 18yr old DS gave my 7yr old DS as he left a mark. I would not contact the police regarding this the same as he would not contact the police regarding me hurting him. It was an isolated issue that escalated stupidly. We all sat down and talked about it. I apologised to him he apologised to his brother, he has ASD so is learning slowly to manage emotions and reactions. I am not an abuser and neither is he we behaved poorly in that moment and have addressed it. We know our own family dynamics and so does OP. I know we dont need counselling but wouldnt be afraid to ask for it if I did. I hope OP could do the same if needed. Some of the judgement on here is harsh and unjustified.

Stop minimising. appalling behaviour from parents who are now reaping what they have sown.

You have made your daughter into what she is. Absolute soul mate indeed. Your poor kids. Maybe you can save your 9 yr old.

FFS, it's not abuse. It sounds like your daughter would try the patience of Mother Theresa. Your husband lost his temper - these things happen. He didn't hit her, he tried to grab her. If this were a one-off I'd say move on, enough said, and frankly it's good for your daughter to learn that you can only push people so far.

As others have said, it's the punching holes in walls that is more concerning. Your family might benefit from a bit of counselling.

You're talking about silencing a child who has been physically grabbed so hard that she has bruised? That's not endorsing abuse at all, no sirree. hmm

Do you know kids can be abusers too? I know a girl who was a well behaved teen girl in school but a raging monster at home, she was beating her mum all the time (bruises, kicks, etc), the day her mum thought the girl was going to kill her, she rang the police. The girl threw a drama and told the police it had been in “self defence”.

I saw once 10 year old ramming his mum repeatedly with a trolley against a wall. It was so bad seeing the mum curled on the floor trying to protect herself from the hits.

And my friend’s 14 year old son... bloody model of virtue in school, he looks very shy but, the moment he doesn’t get exactly what he wants is all screams, punches and kicks. I wish he was just trashing the house but he has a good aim at hitting both his parents and younger sister.

I don’t condone child abuse, I was a victim myself, but I have come to understand that children can be abusers as well.

I think your dd sounds very spoilt. No, your dh should never have grabbed her, but he needs to stick with the plan, ie the phone goes if he or you say so.

So are you going to get counselling for all of you?