To break up my marriage

[Forgivemenot43]

I've NC for this as it's really sensitive and I'm in a dilemma. Sorry it's really long so don't start reading if you can't be arsed. I've been married for 20 yrs to my absolute soul mate. We met aged 15 and have been inseparable ever since. We have 2 children aged 9 and 16. Life is on the whole good. However, here comes the bad bit.....
We are all quite highly strung and when we have a row it can get out of hand. This happens about 2 - 3 times a year. The eldest dd is very argumentative and can be at times vile, particularly towards me. Like many teens I guess. So it usually starts with us arguing then I lose my temper and yell and she yells back etc etc. This can then escalate to my husband getting involved then he loses his temper and yells and because he's angry he has punched walls etc and put holes in them. Then we all make up and it's brushed under the carpet until it happens again.
So the other night my dd was horrible to me and was going to storm out of the house. She said some really nasty things and it was all over something really trivial. Her dad then gets angry and demands she loses her phone for her behaviour. Only like has happened loads of times before, she won't give him it. She gloats and says there's nothing you can do about it as you can't touch me. When this has happened in the past he has just given up and her behaviour has gone unpunished or we've had to suspend the phone through the network. But this time he was so pissed off with her he grabbed hold of her to physically get the phone off her. I didn't witness this as I was downstairs but I could hear what was going on. She was screaming and shouting hysterically angry because he had overpowered her and I have now learnt hurt her. She stormed out and he went after her while I was comforting our youngest child who was in bed but saw it from his room. Dd came back and went straight to her room with her phone as he gave her it back. Since then they've kind of being ok with each other and like other times, beginning to move on and forget it happened. But today dd showed me her arm where he grabbed her. There's clear finger marks where he has grabbed her arm to restrain her to get the phone. I feel sick thinking about it. She's rightfully angry but doesn't want to tell the police or anything drastic to happen. Then an hour later we are all on a walk together and she starts having a go at him and threatens him that 1 call and he's going to jail. She knows that he knows hes done wrong and I don't think she'll forget this. So deep down I know I should protect my child and ask him to leave but I'm scared of the whole consequences of breaking up my family. I dont really think dd wants this but at the same time I know she is a child. Apart from these awful arguments we have a great life. We go on holidays the kids love and adore him and we are like a normal family. What do I do? If he left it would devastate my youngest and I think it would dd too. And of course it would me. I have no financial worry at all but it's everything else. Breaking up my family. Please can I have some advice.

he does it because he's got a surge of anger and has to release it. It's not done in front of the kids
So he doesn't actually "have to" release his anger, as he is able to control the time and place he releases it: not in front of the kids, not on holiday where other people would notice, not at work?

Have you and your dh/your family all grown up in an atmosphere where this kind of violent behaviour and yelling is normalised?
How about your friends; do they accept yelling and smashing things as bad, but normal life, too?
Have you thought about other ways of dealing with stress?

If you want to save your family, you need to be arranging some family therapy pronto. Tbh, none of the individual parts of the behaviour are that extreme, but the interaction and resulting dynamic are awful and damaging and your kids are going to be in for a lifetime of fucked up relationships if you, as the parents, don’t reset the family narrative.

Based on what her parents have previously modelled to her as normal and healthy relationship behaviour, where do you think she learnt to call you "vile" names?

What a toxic sounding family you are. It sounds like you all need to do an anger management course.

To answer your AIBU: of course you wouldn't be unreasonable to leave a man who punches walls. Personally I'd find it hard to think of a reason not to leave someone who did that.

Whether or not you leave him, it would really help everyone in your family if you got some outside help on how to deal with stress, and therapy for the kids.

In a few years time when your DD goes from abusive relationship to abusive relationship, don't be surprised.

I hope within her relationships she doesn't excuse the grabbing, because this is how women end up dead. It suddenly escalates. Another thing that keeps women in abusive relationships is that they don't want to lose their home, job etc. You'll have schooled her well.

People have advised you on your husband. What strikes me is I have never got into an 'argument' with my teens. Never mind a screaming one where they are horrible to me. What on earth

Haven't read the full thread OP but he is a monster.

He hurt your child!!!

GET RID.

Agree with other posters - you need family counselling pronto. That kind of behaviour, from any of you, is not normal.

Shameful behaviour. As adults you should be controlling your anger and acting like civilised human beings - do either of you behave this way at work? I doubt it. So you can control yourself, you just chose not to. Your children are being abused and learning this behaviour. What bloody chance do they have?

@chockaholic72 he doesn't need family counselling, he needs slinging out the house for being an abusive prick.

Prioritise children, never spouses.

Shameful behaviour. As adults you should be controlling your anger and acting like civilised human beings - do either of you behave this way at work? I doubt it. So you can control yourself, you just chose not to. Your children are being abused and learning this behaviour. What bloody chance do they have?

^^THIS

Why can't your DH punch a pillow if he really has to? Or buy a punch bag? I can't understand why that issue hasn't been addressed years ago.

As for your DD being lovely when she's in a good mood - that's most people surely? Sounds like you all walk on eggshells around each other. Your poor 9yo must be living in a hellish atmosphere.

As I've said, I have by no means been a perfect parent. I have instances I am heartily ashamed of. If I had laid hands on my child to the point I left bruising on them, I would be devastated, absolutely beside myself that I had done that to them. Their parent, the person they should see as their protector. Hell, I've felt like that at a lot less. Not minimising.

It's so important to own your actions to your child, to ask their forgiveness, to try to mend the family fences so you go forward doing better, and healing the injuries caused by your bad parenting practice in the past.

Can you imagine how your teenaged daughter felt as she was wrestled and overpowered by her father for her phone? Was it really worth it? How do you think your kids feel when they see the holes in the wall? Thinking, 'mmmm, that's how angry and strong Dad is. That could've been me.' Which is kind of the message isn't it? 'Has a surge of anger and has to release it? Give me a break.

Seems like there's all the excuses and forgiveness in the world for adult DH. Not so much the teenaged daughter.

My dad never punched walls, he would take the dog a long walk if him and my mum had words...

My ex husband punched walls, and after 10 years of that he punched me. I called the police.

If yours had done this once in 20 years thats forgivable but every 3 or 4 months.. That's a lot.

I’ve just finished a Level 8 systemic family therapy qualification and I am a social worker, so I do have an insight into how it works. You don’t necessarily have to separate the family but you do need an intervention (I would suggest a professional one) to make a difference because it is a mess isn’t it and do you want to carry on doing the same thing and creating the same messes?

Each family has a ‘script’ and this script achieves homeostasis and balance in the family. As nobody can cope with awful, aggressive rows all the time can they? So you keep sweep each event under the carpet to get that back. You need to blow this script up and change it for good, otherwise you will all suffer long term.

Think about how you do being female in your family?
How you do being male in your family?
How do you deal with conflict?
Who does that work for or serve?
Who comes out last in it?

I'd be asking 16 year old to consider moving out and supporting herself if she is able
Sounds like she doesn't want to be there anyway

It sounds like some anger management therapy for your husband, or family therapy would be a positive move forwards here. It will show your children that this isn't acceptable as well as giving your husband (&DD) support to manage his outbursts.

Especially as, if you say, things are good the rest of the time.

If you get help, and your dd stays at home until 18, you might be able to help undo some of the damage you have done to her over the next couple of years. If she goes now, you would be leaving her to undo that damage alone, and giving her the message that you put her violent dad before her.

Your family sounds really toxic! Your daughter has learnt the way to get heard is to have violent rows to get her own way.

None of you are coming out of this well. It won't be long until your youngest starts to behave the same way.

To be punching holes in walls is showing huge anger and needs to be sorted. None of this is normal.

I have brought up 4 teenage boys, and not of one of them have behaved like your daughter. This isn't about being a teenager, this is about her getting her own way. If you don't sort this as a family very soon it will get a lot worse.

You all need anger management classes and your bratty DD needs to learn some respect. It would have been more effective to suspend her phone contract (assuming you pay the bills) and change the wifi password.

Do any of you ever lose your tempers and/or get physical when frustrated outside the home? If not, what do you think stops you?

Is there somewhere he could move to as a short term arrangement while he seeks therapy for anger management? If he would be willing to do that and he made serious, meaningful changes there might be a way forward. But if he wouldn’t agree to that I totally understand why you feel your only option is to end the relationship.

Do you realise it isn't normal to punch walls? That's not a healthy outlet for anger or aggression and it's absolutely done to intimidate. Unless there is going to be a massive dripfeed that your DH punched walls when he worked outwith the home and that he regularly gets into fights with grown men. But I'm guessing he does none of those things because in those situations, he manages his temper. He doesn't manage it when he is at home because he doesn't want to. His behaviour has escalated and you have no way of knowing how it will escalate next.
You can't sweep it under the carpet this time so either counselling; anger management or separation. My friend's DH used to 'punch' walls. Eventually he went to anger management when she gave him an ultimatum. Ultimately it didn't help their relationship because someone who uses violence to intimidate doesn't just need to learn how to manage their anger. Their anger is one step in their arsenal to manipulate and keep control. Their daughters have gone on to be in relationships with emotionally abusive and unavailable men. They're replicating the pattern that their mum normalised.

Omg, this sounds horrid. You all need professional intervention, as a family. No one is treating each other right.
With regards to the phone incident, your daughter sounds horrible and your husband sounds horrible, they are equally at fault. He of course is more, because he is the adult, but that incident doesn’t sound terrible in the context of the way your whole household behaves. I find it strange that you normalise all the rest but want to leave over this. You all need professional help asap.

I think you need some family therapy altogether to discuss things frankly. And I think it could work well from what you've described; I don't think you've got an irresolvable situation, but everyone has to be on board with going.

My mum asked my dad to go to anger management classes when he on occasion slammed his fist into a wall. He went, he engaged thoroughly and has never lost his temper since. I can see his coping strategies at work, he leaves the situation (and yes, I have seen extreme provocation, it's not so simple as a one-sided situation).

It would be best if you all went together however, as there are a few dynamics at work here by the looks of things.

I have very mixed feelings about this as I was a little shit as a teenager, and I’m not convinced grabbing a teenager to take their phone off them is “assault”. I also think it’s unfair to blame OP for her teenager being a brat to her - some kids pick this up from tv shows or school.

On the other hand, someone punching the wall in anger (especially as a frequent occurrence) is extremely worrying and bizarre and does make this look like an unhealthy; scary environment.